>> Stephen: HEY!
HERE WE GO.
BACK IN THE SADDLE.
CAN LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WELCOME BACK.
MY NEXT GUEST IS AN AUTHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST AT CNN.
PLEASE WELCOME BACK TO "THE LATE SHOW," JOHN AVLON!
♪ ♪ ♪
HELLO, JOHN!
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
NICE TO SEE YOU BEGAN.
>> GREAT TO SEE YOU, AS ALWAYS.
>> Stephen: ALL EYES ARE ON RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.
PRESIDENT BIDEN SPOKE TODAY, CALLED THIS THE BEGINNING OF AN
INVASION.
WHAT DID YOU THINK-- TWO PARTS, WHAT DID YOU THINK OF BIDEN'S
SPEECH?
AND WHAT IS THE BEGINNING OF INVASION?
HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT THAN AN INVASION?
IS THAT A LITTLE BIT PREGNANT?
( LAUGHTER ).
>> IT IS, AND YET, THAT'S WHAT PUTIN IS TRYING TO CONVINCE THE
WORLD, RIGHT.
YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO SAY THESE TWO-- THESE TWO REGIONS OF
UKRAINE ARE ACTUALLY PART OF RUSSIA.
SO WE'RE GOING TO SEND IN PEACEKEEPERS, BUT IT'S AN
INVASION.
HE JUST HASN'T MOVED ON KYIV YET.
LOOK, HERE'S THE DEAL-- BIDEN'S GOT TO MAKE THE CASE TO THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE FOR WHY UKRAINE MATTERS.
BUT HE'S ACTUALLY BEEN SETTING THIS UP FOR A LONG TIME.
HE'S BEEN VERY CONSISTENT SAYING THE CHALLENGE OF OUR TIME IS
DEMOCRACY VERSUS AUTOCRACY.
>> Stephen: IT COULD NOT BE MORE STARKLY LAID OUT.
>> THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
THIS IS VLADIMIR PUTIN MOVING AGAINST THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER,
EVERYTHING FROM SELF-DETERMINATION TO LAWS TO
DECENCY TO DEMOCRACY.
AND SAYING THAT MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.
AND THEN IT'S UP TO THE DEMOCRACIES OF THE WORLD-- THANK
YOU -- >> Stephen: THAT'S RIGHT.
>> THE DEMOCRACIES OF THE WORLD TO STAND UP, STAND TOGETHER, AND
SAY, NO, THIS AGGRESSION WILL NOT STAND.
AND WE'LL SEE IN SANCTIONS IN A TARGETED WAY ARE ENOUGH TO DETER
HIM, AS LONG AS THE ELITES IN THE KREMLIN, THE KLEPTOCRATS
FEEL THE PAIN.
WE DON'T WANT A HOT WAR, WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE ONE HERE.
BUT THIS IS A FRONT TO DEMOCRACY.
AND IT'S A TEST CASE TO THE TRAJECTORY OF THE REST OF THE
CENTURY.
MAKE NO MISTAKE-- UKRAINE TODAY, TAIWAN TOMORROW.
SO WATCH OUT.
>> Stephen: THAT IS THE-- THAT IS THE-- THAT IS SORT OF THE
CHILLING PART OF THIS.
>> YES.
>> Stephen: THAT IT DOES FEEL LIKE THE OPENING MOVE OF A VERY
LONG CHESS GAME OF REORGANIZING THE INTERNATIONAL POLITICAL
REALITY AND THE POST-WORLD WAR II.
HOWEVER IMPERFECT THE POST-WORLD WAR II PIECE.
>> PERFECT IS NEVER ON THE MENU.
>> Stephen: RIGHT.
>> BUT WE CAN'T TAKE OUR GAINS FOR GRANTED.
YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T TAKE DEMOCRACY FOR GRANTED.
AND I THINK THERE'S A DANGER OF THAT.
WE SEE IT HERE AT HOME.
WE CERTAINLY SEE IT ABROAD RIGHT NOW WHEN PEOPLE ARE SAYING, "WHY
DOES THIS MATTER?" IT MATTERS BECAUSE, YOU SAID,
WE'VE HAD 75 YEARS OF RELATIVE PEACE AND PROSPERITY IN EUROPE.
THAT'S VIRTUALLY UNHEARD OF IN HUMAN HISTORY, RIGHT.
THOSE FOLKS WERE KILLING EACH OTHER FOR CENTURIES.
AND YET, WHAT HAPPENED IS WE WON THE PEACE AFTER THE SECOND WORLD
WAR, RIGHT.
I MEAN, WE INSISTED, FOLLOWING ACTUALLY LINCOLN'S PRESCRIPTION,
UNDELEGATE SURRENDER FOLLOWED BY MAGNANIMOUS PEACE.
WE INVESTED IN PEACE IN THE FORM OF THE MARSHALL PLAN.
AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.
INTERESTINGLY-- I APPRECIATE THE LITTLE PRODUCT PLACEMENT THERE.
>> Stephen: WE'RE GOING TO GET TO IT IN JUST A MOMENT, I
PROMISE.
>> WHERE ACTUALLY THIS BOOK CAME FROM IS REALLY RELEVANT TO THAT.
I FOUND A QUOTE FROM GENERAL LUCCUOUS CLAY, WHO THE AMERICAN
GENERAL WHO DID THE GERMAN OCCUPATION.
HE WAS BORN 30 YEARS AFTER THE CIVIL WAR DIS. SOMEONE ASKED
HIM, "WHAT GUIDED YOUR DECISIONS?"
AND HE SAID, "I TRIED TO THINK WHAT ABRAHAM LINCOLN WOULD HAVE
DONE FOR THE SOUTH IF HE HAD LIVED.
AND IT'S THAT SENSE, INVESTING IN PEACE IS THE KEY.
YOU NEED TO WAGE PEACE.
>> Stephen: THE NAME OF THE BOOK IS "LINCOLN AND THE FIGHT
FOR PEACE."
IS WHAT IS THAT FIGHT FOR PEACE?
>> WHAT LINCOLN UNDERSTOOD-- AND I THINK THE FACT OF THE CIVIL
WAR-- THERE HAD NEVER BEEN A CIVIL WAR ON THAT SCALE BEFORE
IN HUMAN HISTORY.
>> Stephen: THERE HADN'T BEEN ANY KIND OF WAR AT THAT SCALE.
IT WAS SORT OF FIRST MODERN WAR.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
SO A SAVAGERY THAT WAS UNIMAGINABLE.
YOU KNOW, THREE-QUARTERS OF A MILLION AMERICANS DIED,
AMERICANS ON BOTH SIDES.
AND WHAT'S-- DEMOCRACY WAS, YOU KNOW, AT STAKE BECAUSE,
REMEMBER, IT WAS AN ATTEMPT TO BASICALLY DECIDE THAT ABRAHAM
LINCOLN WAS AN ILLEGITIMATE PRESIDENT, AN INSURRECTION, AN
ATTACK TO SEPARATE.
IT WAS ABOUT SLAVERY, FOUR MILLION AMERICAN SLAVES, IT WAS
ABOUT FREEDOM.
BUT LINCOLN UNDERSTOOD THIS KEY FACT-- AND THIS IS THE FIGHT FOR
PEACE-- IF YOU DON'T WIN THE PEACE, YOU DON'T REALLY WIN THE
WAR.
AND IN A SELF-WAR, YOU CAN'T POUND YOUR OPPONENTS INTO
SUBMISSION.
YOU NEED TO FIND A WAY TO LIVE TOGETHER AGAIN.
AND SO LINCOLN WAS THINKING LONG TERM, PAST THAT IMMEDIATE CAUSE
AND EFFECT.
AND HE WAS DEVELOPING A PLAN TO WIN THE PEACE WITH MALS TOWARD
NONE, WITH CHARITY FOR ALL.
HE WAS SETTING THE STAGE.
BUT THEN HE'S ASSASSINATED AND HE NEVER GETS TO IMPLEMENT THAT
BUSINESS.
IT'S HIS UNFINISHED SYMPATHY.
>> Stephen: ONE OF THE THINGS LINCOLN TALKED ABOUT IN HIS
FIRST INAUGURAL, WAS APPEALING TO THE BETTER ANGELS.
PEOPLE OFTEN TALK ABOUT OUR PRESENT NATIONAL CONDITION AS A
COLD CIVIL WAR, WHEREAS WE CERTAINLY, ON SOCIAL MEDIA, BUT
OFTEN GEGRASHLY, WE SELF-SELECT FOR OUR OWN COMMUNITIES AND WE
DON'T LISTEN TO EACH OTHER ANYMORE.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT LINCOLN'S GOALS WERE AND WHAT HIS DREAM
WAS FOR THE POST-CIVIL WAR AMERICA WHAT, DO YOU SEE AS A
PRESCRIPTION FOR US TO APPEAL TO THE BETTER ANGELS OF OUR NATURE
NOW?
WHAT ARE THOSE BETTER ANGELS WE CAN CALL ON?
BECAUSE THERE'S GOT TO BE SOMETHING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF
THIS DARK MOMENT.
>> WHAT LINCOLN REALLY UNDERSTOOD, ASIDE FROM THE FACT
EVEN IN THE CIVIL WAR, HE UNDERSTOOD THERE WAS MORE THAT
UNITED US THAN DIVIDED ALSO AS AMERICANS.
THAT'S TOUGH TO DO.
HE DIDN'T DEMONIZE PEOPLE HE DISAGREEWITH.
BUT HE PRACTICEDLY THE POLITICS OF GOLDEN RULE-- TREAT OTHER
PEOPLE AS YOU WOULD LIKE TO BE TREATED.
AND IT'S JUST AS DIFFICULT AND POWERFUL AS THAT.
LOOK, OUR EMPTHIGH HAS BEEN TESTED, ALL OF US.
BUT THE FACT THAT HE BALANCED HIS MORAL COURAGE WITH
MODERATION, THAT HE NEVER FELT A SENSE OF MORAL SUPERIORITY.
THAT HE TRIED TO REASON WITH PEOPLE USING EMPATHY AS A
PATHWAY TO PERSUASION, EVEN IN THE MIDDLE OF A CIVIL WAR, THAT
IF HE COULD DO IT THEN, THAT EVEN THOUGH THAT EXAMPLE SEEMS
IMPOSSIBLY HIGH-- AND IT WAS RARE IN HIS TIME, TOO-- THAT
THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO AIM TOWARD.
WE'LL FALL SHORT, BUT WE NEED TO AIM TOWARDS THAT AGAIN.
AND REMEMBER THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF FOLKS ARE NOT THE
SCREAMERS AND THE PROFESSIONAL DIVIDERS AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
TRYING TO PROFIT OFF ALL THIS POLARIZATION.
THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE BASICALLY GOOD.
AND WE NEED TORM THAT AND THEN BUILD ON THAT.
( APPLAUSE ).
>> Stephen: THANK YOU FOR THIS BOOK.
IT IS A PROFOUND MEDICATION AND LESSON FOR US ALL AND A
BEAUTIFUL WORK.
>> THANK YOU, MY FRIEND.
>> Stephen: "LINCOLN AND THE FIGHT FOR PEACE" IS AVAILABLE
NOW.
JOHN AVLON, EVERYBODY!
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.
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