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>> Okay, welcome back everyone.
To theCUBEs coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021.
I'm John Furrier hosting theCUBE.
We are here live in person for a real event.
It's a hybrid event, it's a live stream,
a lot of actions, two cube sets here, wall-to-wall coverage,
you go to siliconangle.com.
And of course to cube.net to check all the coverage out
And Amazon has got their own live event site,
go check out all the action.
But Stuart McGill here, CTO of Micro Focus
the company that was part of the big announcement
involving the mainframe modernization that Adam Selipsky
announced onstage on his first keynote as CEO
and under the covers is Micro Focus powering
a lot of that functionality, Stuart,
thanks for coming on theCUBE to break it down with me.
>> Thanks John, it's exiting.
>> so what does the announcement mean that Adam gave the IBM.
I mean, at the mainframe announcement
as you might be an IBM is known for the mainframe,
but he had the mainframe modernization program.
What's that all about?
>> All right, I think we'd like to think of this
as the next evolution of the mainframe for those customers
that have been running on the mainframe for 40 years,
they bet their business on it, where do they go next?
What does the future hold?
And this is all part of the announcement yesterday
is this is the journey that many,
many customers are going to decide to go on.
>> So tell whether the relationship between AWS
and Micro Focus obviously
I know AWS is talking about migration for the Oracle
and a lot of their customers have these mainframes
that are in the classic data centers.
Adam Selipsky told me personally,
when I interviewed him that, you know, the mainframe
is part of that data center mindset that people
are chipping away at now, they want to move them out.
Maybe keep some functionality,
but for the most part migrated it out eventually.
This is where you guys are involved.
Take us through why that's important.
>> Well, I think it's a level of agility
that it has actually delivered for many customers.
They need to move a hell of a lot faster
than they currently are.
Let's face it. The world is changing at pace.
The applications that support these customers need to also
change with pace.
What AWS does is give this market on momentum.
Which is where do we go next?
Where do we take customers
Where workloads have been running their business?
How are they going to run their business in five years time?
How they're going to run their business in 10?
>> Well, congratulations on Micro Focus
big part of the announcement
specifically explained to me Micro Focus's role
in the announcement with AWS?
What's the relationship.
>> I think they are twofold to call it out
actually, we've been working with AWS for many, many years.
This isn't something that's radically new.
We've been engaging with them for literally 10 years
at least.
But the key element is Micro Focus
first provides technology that's an enabler
to facilitate AWS delivering the service
as well as a competency partner to help customers
actually accelerate their journey to take advantage of it.
>> So they're bundling Micro Focus into that capability.
Is it software that you guys have
what's going on under the covers?
>> I think it's software it's capability, it's expertise.
It's everything that a customer might need to help and get
be successful.
Our job is to support AWS is AWS's job to make sure
the customer is absolutely satisfied.
>> All right, so give me an example.
I'm a customer, I've got a mainframe.
I'm a bank I've been using the mainframe
and boy just squeaks in time to get my backup done
before I turned on the lights in the morning,
it's just working, it's humming.
It's pumping on all cylinders.
My COBOL programmer just quit.
What do I do?
How do you guys help me?
>> Well, I think there are two reasons
why you can give us a call is, number one.
Yeah, you need to move your business at pace.
So what's going to run your business going forward.
So you need to understand your applications.
Number two, the cost profile of your existing infrastructure
is going to be incredibly expensive.
So what do you want to do is essentially make the change,
accelerate the change delivered at a much lower cost.
>> So it looks at the application.
So the software says, okay,
what's the app.
And then just create like a replica, a digital twin.
I'm just trying to visualize what.
>> Oh I see what you mean,
>> What happens because I got the main frame.
I know what that is.
I've been dealing with that animal for a long time.
What happens next is it containerized.
Is that an app replication.
>> The customer determines how far they want to go.
If they would like their mainframe application
to run in the cloud exactly as is.
So it supports their customers exactly
as they expect today, we can do that.
On the other hand, if they need to enhance
that experience for their customers,
if they need to take it into a completely different
environment, if they do want to containerize,
if they do want to take it into new levels of service,
if they do want to leverage artificial intelligence
and machine learning, then again,
they can determine the journey.
Micro Focus is there to essentially support them,
do that first step.
Which is get the applications ready to be delivered into
cloud as fast as possible.
>> Oh, congratulations on the relationship.
I guess I got to ask you the question what's on my mind,
is that, okay, is this death of the mainframe
long live the mainframe?
The old expression.
Is mainframe dying or they're going to hang around for a while.
I mean, the dinosaurs are out there, right?
(both laughing)
>> I think this is,
we'd like to position it more as an evolution.
We don't think the mainframe is going to die.
There will be customers who want to stay there
and we respect their choices.
But on the other hand, this is a way to truly accelerate
the future of mainframe applications.
>> You know in all serious Stuart
I would talk to a lot of CX CSOs and CIOs and they all
tell me the same thing.
When they move into the cloud,
the white hot core is pretty much the main theme
or critical apps to get the edges first
move them to the cloud.
And then they come in and they start chipping away
at the main core,
and then slowly move it out because they don't want to get
in there and disrupt.
So disruption's a huge concern.
How does this new modernization trans migration program
for the mainframe ensure that disruption doesn't happen?
What's, I'm sure that's on their mind.
>> Well, I think what you're describing
is what's the cut-over?
Which is you're running on the mainframe today.
You want to run on the mainframe tomorrow,
if that's the case or do you want to run on the mainframe
today and you want to run in the cloud tomorrow?
Essentially, the cut-over is the same.
The process is fairly separate from the mainframe itself.
You're obviously bringing applications off.
We're getting them ready to go test it you know regulate it
So it's been approved securities all in place.
And then essentially it's literally a switch cut.
We literally have customers that turn off the mainframe
and they're already running in the cloud
and then we even have some that have photographs
of them shipping the mainframe out the door.
>> So I got to ask, is there a cut-over party at that point?
People would do that. >> Some people do that
(both laughing)
It's certainly true.
Remember there people are also going along for this journey.
It's a big moment for them.
>> I hate to sound old.
Today's my birthday. So I have to say this.
I remember when I was breaking into the business
in my twenties, I never did.
I never programmed on punch cards,
but I remember pointing at the mainframe guys and saying
those old relics, I guess that's what I would be today.
But the young guns coming into the industry today,
they want containers, they want microservices.
They want cloud. I see what's going on here at AWS.
I mean, some really cool stuff Happening.
>> And they want to take advantage
of all the cool stuff that is there.
And every single announcement that's been made today
and yesterday, and the days ahead,
all of those are great capabilities.
If you can get them into the core of your business.
And so the key is to actually take,
what's running your business today,
enhance it and improve it and take it forward.
>> Yeah, I think the key point is great insight on your part,
about this cut-over because people know what that means.
>> Yeah. >> It's a project plan.
>> Yes. >> Cut it over, get it set up.
And I think that's the hard part.
How hard is that on the cloud side, in terms of staging,
can you share some timetables with me just to kind of
give me a feel for order of magnitude.
I got a mainframe assume it's pumping,
it's an app I'm using, I really can't shut it down,
but I want to cut it over storage.
How much time to prepare to get it to the cloud?
Roughly just order of magnitude.
>> For most customers, they tend to face these things.
They're not trying to, if you're a really big bank,
you are not going to do that overnight.
That isn't going to come as a big surprise.
But what you're going to do is you can take it in chunks.
And they're typically 12 to 15 months,
which is the biggest step of the journey,
which is going from mainframe to cloud.
The next iteration is going to be modernizing
those applications is going to be much shorter timeframes.
Then you're getting into months, weeks, days after that.
>> Is there any categories that you see that are more
susceptible to migration?
I mean, as you mentioned, banks,
I know some banks that they swear.
They'll never going to touch the mainframe because literally
it's just so critical that the migration has to be longer.
Is there other areas of the more insurance is I'll be a big
market for in mainframes?
Is our verticals that kind of like are more converting
than others?
>> Well, yes, but actually I take it back.
One of the reasons is are these applications absolutely
critical to these businesses?
If they are, that's the reason why they're still running,
where they are, because they really truly valuable.
They are the business.
So you make, you're taking the business
into a new framework.
So in that context, actually it tends
to be financial services, insurance as you say,
but also government, for example,
federal governments, state and local,
as well as then you move into retail.
And it's surprising how often as you go
into some of the other verticals where some
of these mainframe applications are still existing.
>> I hate to ask a dumb question only because I don't know.
So I want to ask it.
and you can say it's a dumb question if you think it is.
Just tell me,
are there still COBOL programmers out there?
>> There are, to be clear, actually COBOL is not the problem.
You can train a new guy in COBOL in literally weeks.
>> If they don't quit. >> The issue is, yeah
(both laughing)
>> The actual issue is the mainframe itself,
the mainframe experience about how it works.
>> Yeah.
>> It's getting rarer and rarer.
So the key element is how can you take the new young guns
and give them the application and see what they can do.
And this is a mechanism to do that.
>> Great announcement. Congratulations.
I was really impressed to see the mainframe
actually surprised to see Adam kind of focused on that.
But again, in the spirit of this traditional reinvent
Jassy before Adam and Jassy did the same thing with Oracle
and all the other kinds of big, the big legacy old guard,
they call them technologies, mainframes one,
you guys are part of that, so congratulations.
Just final word, your take on the events so far,
what's been the feedback on the announcement,
share some color commentary
on what the feedback's been for you guys
>> Now we, actually, since the announcement,
we've had some great customer conversations.
I mean, there are a lot of businesses
that really do want to make this change.
We're kind of there to help them.
And that's really the next step,
which is what needs to happen to make this reality.
>> Amazon may not like me saying it,
but I think that some use cases where you keep the mainframe
in there and you don't touch it and it works there.
You keep it unless you want to move,
but if you want to move it,
people sometimes want to move it faster
and they get this path there.
>> Even AWS respects customer choice,
the purpose is to meet the demand of the customer
and if the customer chooses to stay on the mainframe, great.
If they want to move off, we're there to help.
>> Yeah to the mainframe long live the mainframe.
It's theCUBE coverage here in Las Vegas.
I'm John Furrier. I love the mainframe.
I used to have a 30 to 70 terminal when I was working
at IBM back in the eighties, dating myself.
Stuart McGill, thanks for coming on theCUBE, appreciate it.
>> Pleasure
>> Okay, CUBE coverage here in Las Vegas,
theCUBE you're watching the leader
in global tech event coverage.
I'm John Furrier, your host.
Thanks for watching.
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