Data often reigned supreme when you're trying to pitch or to persuade.
Yet too many numbers can numb those listening or reading them.
How do we find the sweet spot where numbers are motivating to our audience
without complicating our messages?
I'm Matt Abrahams and
I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
I am really looking forward to speaking with Chip heat.
Chip is the thrive foundation for
youth professor of organizational behavior at the GSB.
His research examines why certain ideas survive and thrive while others don't.
He is the co-author of many amazing books,
including the Power of Moments, Decisive, Switch, and Made to Stick.
Chip has a new book out Making Numbers Count the Art and
Science of Communicating Numbers.
Thanks for being here, Chip, I am a huge fan of your work.
>> Thanks for having him.
>> Let's jump right into it.
I have enjoyed all of your books but made distinct which focuses on how to get
ideas to stick in a world full of so much information in Switch, which is all
about effective persuasion continue to have profound impact on my communication.
Can you share with us one powerful takeaway from each of these books?
>> I think the takeaway from main mistake is that all of us as we become experts
experienced what we call the curse of knowledge.
And the curse of knowledge is that when you're an expert,
it's hard for you to imagine what it's like not to know what you know.
If you ever talked a doctor or lawyer, you've been on the other side of
the curse of knowledge if you're not trained in those fields.
But it also works for for any kind of expertise, take an 11 year old boy and
ask him about his favorite video game you will be on the other side of the curse of
knowledge that Lemonier cannot fathom the situation.
And so the best hint from me the stick is to talk in very concrete ways because
before we become an expert we think in very concrete terms, I think the takeaway
from switch that I loved was most was discovering power bright spots thinking.
And so it turns out that our brains are wired to critique situation.
And so if we've got a publican downturn, the sales force has
really been hit hard by this Tend to focus on the people that are doing the worst and
try to coach them and help them out.
What we don't often do, is look at the best people and steal their ideas.
And so, I think plagiarism is only penalized when we're in school and
after that, you can borrow and steal ideas.
And we're not talking IP here, if somebody has a great idea In your Salesforce,
why not roll that out to the other salespeople so that they have the benefits
of having that picture that ID or that angle for a customer.
And I think we don't do that nearly enough.
We don't do an education we nonprofits, we always try to rediscover things,
the advantage that we have with bright spots do you think the best
of what's already been discovered?
>> Both of those speak very loudly to me and I remember them distinctly from
reading your books the notion of the curse of knowledge looms large in all
communication and this idea of leveraging what you already have makes a lot of sense
you're right we spend a lot of time reinventing rather than leveraging and
reflecting on what works and advancing it so so thank you for sharing that and
I love hearing it in your own words It's exciting to hear it, not just read it.
Speaking of your books and your newest book,
you explore how we can better communicate numbers and data.
You make the provocative claim that if we want to communicate clearly,
every number must be translated.
What do you mean by translate?
What are the dangers of leaving numbers untranslated?
>> I think the danger of leaving numbers on Translate is that we just don't get it.
Some people that run the search engine Microsoft did some experimenting this
where they took back from the literature and they were getting across to somebody
just done a search So somebody was looking for them in the area of Pakistan.
And let's make up a number because I don't have it here in front of me 680 billion
hectares or whatever it is.
If they also gave people a slight analogy that is in excess that
size of two Californians or five Colorado.
It turns out no matter what phrase you pick down, it equated those two term.
People would remember a week later or
six weeks later much better if they have a translation.
And I think the pass of knowledge has an impact on us when dealing with numbers.
Numbers people know they're numbers very well.
But almost everybody else does it.
If we don't translate the numbers into something that's more tangible,
we're going to sacrifice in a big way.
One example from my students is, here's back I gave people the assignment of
convincing people to buy carbon breast balls when they first came out,
and they were expensive.
They're one bug with my cost $7 and you can get a whole pack of them.
You can dispose for Boilers and yet they saved electricity and lasted longer.
And so some of my students sat down and said, no, we
didn't do your assignment where you ask us to talk about the savings on electricity.
The one thing that bugs us all, is changing a bulb is always a hassle.
And it's carbon fluorescent bulbs last seven years as opposed to one
year normal incandescent bulb.
As I said here, think about this,
you change that Bob when your child is learning to walk.
Next time you change it, they're going to be learning about oxygen in second grade.
And the next time they're going to be taking their exam for driver's ed.
And all of a sudden, they made seven years mean something to me.
This is such a stunning revelation.
I thought I knew what seven years worth,
they didn't until I marked it down with the development of a child.
And so I think that's the beauty of it.
If we translate numbers, everybody's in position to get the numbers.
Very often analytical people get frustrated because nobody's understanding
your analysis.
Yeah, I'd say if you just Google further and translate those numbers,
your analysis going to have a bigger impact.
>> So giving that perspective that comparison can really really help and
I love that example our students are so
creative chip I'm often in awe of what they can teach us in my coaching and
teaching I find that people see data and emotions as separate,
almost opposites, like yin and yang, or Star Trek's Mr. Spock and Dr. McCoy.
How can we make data emotional?
And should we even try?
>> I think we have to make data emotional,
because emotions are what drives us to act.
And so, if you think about Florence Nightingale was a hero of mine cheap,
the career of nursing.
So much Nightingale founded that professional but she also found that a lot
of the statistical analysis that we do in society.
She originally came in to prominence in Britain during the Crimean War where she
was looking at frontline hospitals and trying to
changed their sanitation practices so that they weren't killing off soldiers.
And she had a very clever graphs made clear that the Russians are killing off
a certain number of our soldiers.
But for hospitals were killing seven or eight times that amount because of
the deaths that would happen once somebody had a wound and gotten infected.
And so she She pursued this not only during the war but after the war and so
she was brilliant at doing things that I think we don't do nearly enough which is
take our numbers and put them in an emotional context
>> Very provocative and
very clearly answered in terms of yes we need
to Use emotion when we talk about data in numbers.
And certainly it plays off of what you talked about in terms of comparisons
earlier, and what you can compare to could be very emotional and
have that impact that you want.
So I wonder why we don't do that.
Is it that we're just not taught how or
is it that we just figure that knowing the information is enough?
And we just leave it for people to figure out on their own,
then I know you don't know the answer to that I'm just curious it strikes me that
in all the examples you've used, they've been so provocative.
My immediate question is, why aren't we doing this all the time?
Do you have some ideas why we don't do this?
I think it takes an extra step that after you've done your analysis,
you just get tired.
And so you're probably two thirds of the way there when you've got the answer
in front of them.
And you need another third of the time to make that answer into something that
people can feel and experience and see in their head.
And it's just hard to force yourself to do that at that moment because you think
I've got the number it's the right number I'm going to present it and
people buy it We don't necessarily >> I think that's exactly right.
And I would add to it that the goal is to get to the answer,
not necessarily to communicate the answer in a way that people can understand it.
So part of it is we have to perhaps change what the ultimate goal is.
>> Somebody came up with a phrase in a foreign language that they yelled out in
a meeting and half the people in the room didn't speak that language.
It'll be considered rude and yet we get numbers and a lot of people in the world
don't understand the numbers like the numbers people and there are a lot of
untranslated numbers that float around organizations and in society.
>> I love that comparison because you're exactly right.
People just take these numbers for granted without actually understanding them.
You mentioned this notion of a numbers person versus not a numbers person I'm and
I'm wondering if what if you're not a numbers person, but
you're in a meeting about numbers.
What can you do?
How can you play how can you participate?
>> Well, I think the first thing to realize is you are not alone.
And even the numbers people in the meeting that didn't happen to do this particular
analysis that was done by the numbers person who's in front of the room at that
point, none of us are prepared to be numbers, people.
The second thing to note is that you can force them onto your turf a little bit.
And so suppose that you took a concrete situation and just said let's imagine that
this table that we're sitting in is the budget that we're talking about here.
What area on the table do you need to mark out to talk about that expense?
And you very quickly realize, is this a trivial thing or is this a big thing?
And the analytical person may even be happy to be asked to do that because they
can do some calculations on the fly and geek out on but they're geeking out
in a way that everybody else understands as opposed to with everybody else doesn't.
>> So it sounds like you as a non numbers person have to invite encourage
maybe cajole and force, some numbers,
people to communicate in a way that you understand and give them that opportunity.
The example you gave with the table reminded me of things I would do with my
children when they were younger and I was trying to explain concepts not necessarily
number of times concepts but I would go out of my way to make sure that I was
explaining it in a concrete visual way to help them understand so
it might be inviting others to communicate with us in that way.
There are some things in understanding numbers that are just hard for
some people.
I'll take myself personally, probability is hard for me,
I believe in streaks for example.
So if I flip a coin three times in a row and it comes up heads those three times,
I actually suspect that it will likely come up heads again and it's a bit.
>> [CROSSTALK] >> [LAUGH] Yeah, right, exactly.
And so I guess,
is there something we have to do in terms of education or learning for ourselves
just a little bit more about how numbers work that you think is important too.
>> I think that great numbers person I think,
is even better than superman with this, not only see through the wall,
they can help other people see through the wall.
And so there's a sense in which we get the numbers right.
It's worth that extra 20% of the effort to translate things into right
terms because none of us are good at probabilities.
And none of us are good at fractions.
And one of my favorite examples is, it turns out 40% of Americans don't
wash their hands necessarily when they're using the restroom in their home
in One of my PhD students said, know what that means is that two of the last five
people that you shook hands with and wash their hands, were shaking your hand.
And all of a sudden that's the same number is 40%.
But we're bad at picturing probability.
And we're really good at picturing two out of five people shaking their hands.
And so that's a testament to the fact that some things are really hard for us and
if we can make those things tangible and concrete we're going to bring on many more
people onto the onto the playing field >> And we're going to motivate change and
innovation very dramatic way, I mean when you said 40% of people don't wash their
hands after using the restroom I thought that's kind of disgusting.
But when you said two out of five I immediately looked around the room and
thought was the hand sanitizer so it definitely changes behavior as well.
Before we end I'm wondering, do you have any last thoughts you'd like to
share about how we can better communicate about data and numbers?
>> I think numbers are incredible things
because they take us to places that we we haven't been on our own.
And we couldn't get to without the numbers.
And so you think that the jumping ability of frogs and
what would it be like if people could jump like frogs?
This is the kind of discussion you have your kids how long yeah It turns out we
did the calculation of the bat.
And there's some people that could dunk from free throw line in NBA that nobody
has ever done from three point line.
Well, if you hit the jumping ability of a frog,
you could dunk three point line up the other team.
Suddenly you get a conversation you have with any sports fan or
any kid and they understand engaged in the same way on it.
The topic that we wouldn't have thought about before,
very often what we found over and over again is running the numbers.
What we experienced was a sense of all it's, wow,
I didn't know that was how important that ability was frog.
There's a lot of power in doing this kind of analysis that brings on
profound emotions in motivates people like we said before to change.
>> Well I really appreciate you sharing not just that last bit of advice but
the advice you've shared before and I see you standing tall with a cape
flowing behind your back as math man instead of superman helping us understand
because you're right there is a superpower involved in that.
So before we end Chip, I always asked the same people the same three questions.
I'm hoping you're open to answering these questions with me is that okay?
>> Yeah.
>> All right, so question number one.
If you were to capture the best communication advice you ever
received as a five to seven word presentation,
slide title what would it be >> The single most important thing that we
found in making any a stick is be concrete the concrete is an abstract words I would
say paint a picture and in parentheses I would say don't tell a story and
I think the second is important not because I'm against storytelling because
that's a second Second level thing, and really our fundamental goal is
communicating is to paint a picture of the concrete every moment.
And then story will emerge from that.
>> I love that and in fact,
people will create their own stories if you paint the picture well enough, and
that's where it really is internalized so paint a picture I like it thank you.
Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
>> When I had to deal with one of my scientific heroes,
Daniel Kahneman won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 2002 as a psychologist and
there's this running disciplinary view between economists and
psychologists that you know, he must be good to get a Nobel Prize in Economics
despite the disciplinary differences, but he is a brilliant communicator
because he always talks in very concrete way they're provocative.
>> Absolutely, I have seen him speak and I read his work and he's very good at that.
Let me ask question number three.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
>> I would say that you want concrete message,
this emotional Tell it in a simple way as possible.
Those are the top three.
>> It's all about being concrete, emotional in simple and
you have done a great job today in all three of those aspects for us.
I thank you Chip for your time and for your insights,
your ideas are incredibly helpful across all of your work, but especially for
helping us to understand how best to present numbers and
data I encourage everyone to read Chip's new book Making Numbers Count,
The Art and Science of Communicating Numbers.
I had a chance to read a preview copy and let me tell you
as far as the numbers go on a scale of 1 to 10 it is certainly an 11.
Thanks again Chip.
>> Thank you.
>> Thanks for joining us for another episode of Think Fast Talk Smart
the podcast produced by Stanford University's Graduate School of Business.
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