>> Stephen: RACHAEL PRICE, EVERYBODY.
>> THERE YOU GO.
>> Stephen: WELCOME BACK.
MY NEXT GUEST IS THE NEW YORK TIMES BEST-SELLING AUTHOR OF THE
OMNIVORE'S DILEMMA, IN DEFENSE OF FOOD, AND HOW TO CHANGE YOUR
MIND.
PLEASE WELCOME, BACK TO THE LATE SHOW, MICHAEL POLLAN
♪ >> Stephen: THANK YOU.
MICHAEL T IS REALLY GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
>> GOOD TO BE BACK.
>> Stephen: IT IS ALWAYS A GREAT CONVERSATION, I'VE ENJOYED
YOUR WRITING EVER SINCE I READ OPIUM MADE EASY, IN HARPER'S
MAGAZINE BACK IN THE THE 0SEE.
>> THAT DOES GO BACK,.
>> Stephen: FIRST THING I EVER READ OF YOURS AND I FIND ALL OF
YOUR WORK FASCINATING.
IT CHANGED HOW I SEE FOOD, WITH YOUR WRITING, OMNIVORE'S
DILEMMA, HOW I THINK ABOUT WHAT I EAT AND WHAT IT MEANS TO OUR
ECOLOGY.
THE NEEDS OF MY PARTICULAR DIET OR LACK THERE-OF.
AND NOW YOU HAVE A BOOK CALLED THIS IS YOUR MIND ON PLANTS,
OKAY.
AND YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ON HERE FOR FIVE YEARS, SADLY.
AND THAT WAS RIGHT BEFORE THE PUBLICATION OF YOUR LAST BOOK,
HOW TO CHANGE YOUR MIND.
>> YEAH, I WAS HERE RIGHT BEFORE THAT BOOK BROKE.
>> Stephen: OKAY, SO ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT A LOT OF THESE
STORIES ARE ABOUT MIND-ALTERING SUBSTANCES THAT GROW NATURALLY
IN THE WORLD, ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT YOU ARE THE PSYCHEDELIC GUY
NOW?
>> WELL, I CERTAINLY DIDN'T SET OUT TO BECOME THE PSYCHEDELIC
GUY BUT I HAVE FALLEN INTO THAT ROLE.
AND YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE HOW OFTEN PEOPLE, AND THIS HAPPENED
IN THE GREEN ROOM WHERE PEOPLE START TELLING ME ABOUT SOME VERY
MEANINGFUL TRIP THEY HAD.
SO I HAVE BECOME-- .
>> Stephen: IS THAT ONE OF MY STAFF?
>> NO, IT WAS ONE OF YOUR GUESTS,.
>> Stephen: ALL RIGHT.
>> AND SO I SORT OF FEEL LIKE I'M THE PSYCHEDELIC CONFESSER.
AND SOMETIMES THE STORIES ARE INTERESTING.
BUT YOU KNOW, HEARING OTHER PEOPLE'S DREAMS, SOMETIMES, NOT
THAT INTERESTING.
>> Stephen: RIGHT.
AS I SAID, IT HAS BEEN FIVE YEARS SINCE YOU WERE ON LAST
TIME, ARE YOU SURPRISED HOW MUCH HAS BEEN MORE ACCEPTANCE OF THE
USE OF PSYCHEDELICS T IS LEGAL IN MANY STATES NOW.
>> IT HAS BEEN DECRIMINALIZED IN SOME PLACES.
BUT NEXT YEAR YOU WILL BE ABLE TO LEGALLY GET A GUIDED
PSYCHEDELIC MAGIC MUSHROOM TRIP IN THE STATE OF OREGON.
THAT PASSED.
YEAH.
>> Stephen: SO BY GUIDED, WHO, WHAT IS, WHO IS YOUR MIND SHERPA
HOW DOES THAT WORK?
>> WELL, IF YOU ARE USING PSYCHEDELIC THERAPEUTICALLY, THE
BEST WAY TO DO IT IS NOT SIMPLY TO JUST TAKE A TAB OF ACID AND
SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
YOU WORK WITH A THERAPIST AND THIS IS SOMEONE WHO PREPARES YOU
VERY CAREFULLY FOR WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, QUALIFIED, MAKE SURE
YOU DON'T HAVE ANY RISK FACTORS LIKE A RELATIVE WHO IS
SCHIZOPHRENIA OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
AND THEN THEY SIT WITH YOU DURING THE ENTIRE TIME, AND THEN
AFTERWORDS THEY HELP YOU TRY TO MAKE SENSE OF WHAT CAN BE A VERY
CONFUSING EXPERIENCE.
SO THAT IS A VERY DIFFERENT WAY OF USING PSYCHEDELICS THAN THE
RECREATIONAL WAY.
>> BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE DO HAVE NEGATIVE EXPERIENCES.
THAT IS SPORNT AND THERE CAN BE DANGEROUS ASPECTS OF THIS.
>> THERE ARE DEFINITELY RISKS.
>> Stephen: WHAT SHOULD PEOPLE KNOW?
>> I THINK THEY SHOULD KNOW IF THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE A HIGH
DOSE THEY SHOULD HAVE SOMEBODY WITH THEM, A SITTER.
>> Stephen: HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT A HIGH DOSAGE IS, THESE
AREN'T A CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE.
>> THAT'S TRUE.
BUT IF YOU ARE HAVING A WHOLE PLATE OF MUSHROOMS, THAT IS A
HIGH DOSE.
>> Stephen: I HAVEN'T THE SLIGHTEST IDEA WHAT I PROPER
DOSAGE OF MUSHROOMS IS.
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: AND I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHETHER I HAVE TAKEN
THEM.3 >> I UNDERSTAND.
>> Stephen: BUT I WILL SAY THIS, THAT I HAVE A DEAR FRIEND
WHO HAS MY NAME NAME WHO WHEN HE WAS IN COLLEGE TOOK WHAT HE NOW
CONSIDERS WAY TOO MUCH.
AND THE BUILDING WAS DIGESTING HIM AND HE WOULD HAVE FLOWN OFF
THE PLANET IF HE HADN'T HELD ON TO JEAN'S PEASANT SKIRT FOR FOUR
HOURS.
AND I DON'T, I'M STILL, MY FRIEND IS STILL WAITING TO
RECOVER AND THINK THAT THATS WITH A GOOD IDEA BECAUSE IT WAG
HORRIBLE.
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: SO THAT CAN HAPPEN.
>> THAT CAN DEFINITELY HAPPEN.
BUT IT'S MUCH LESS LIKELY TO HAPPEN IF YOU APPROACH THE
EXPERIENCE WITH SOME PRESENTATION, WITH A GUIDE WHO
KNOWS HOW MUCH YOU SHOULD TAKE, AND NOT MORE THAN THAT.
AND HELP YOU MAKE SENSE OF IT.
YOU CAN HAVE A VERY TERRIFYING EXPERIENCE THAT IT ACTUALLY
INCREDIBLY INSTRUCTIVE.
>> OH, IT WAS.
I HAVE BEEN TOLD.
>> Stephen: YOU'VE BEEN TOLD.
SO THIS IS YOUR MIND ON PLANTS.
YOU TALK ABOUT VARIOUS DRUGS.
IN THIS.
ALL NATURAL, I ASSUME.
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: WHAT DEFINES A DRUG?
>> GOOD QUESTION, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE A STRONG DEFINITION T IS
SOMETHING THAT YOU INGEST THAT CHANGES YOU.
>> Stephen: AM I ON A DRUG RIGHT NOW.
>> YOU ARE, IT S THIS CAFFEINATED, CAFFEINE IS A DRUG.
90% OF PEOPLE ON EARTH HAVE A DAILY RELATIONSHIP WITH IT.
MOST OF US ARE-- ADDICTED.
NOTHING NEGATIVE TO SAY ABOUT CAFFEINE.
>> Stephen: DID YOU EVER HAVE SOMETHING NEGATIVE TO SAY ABOUT
CAFFEINE?
>> YOU KNOW, I HAD READ A LOT OF NEGATIVE PRESS ABOUT CAFFEINE
AND WORRIED I WAS DRINKING TOO MUCH.
BUT AFTER HAVING RESEARCHED T I REALIZE IT IS ACTUALLY MORE GOOD
FOR YOU THAN NOT IT IS PROTECTIVE AGAINST SEVERAL KINDS
OF CANCER.
PARKINSON'S DISEASE, DEMENTIA, CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE, A LOT OF
GOOD THINGS ABOUT IT.
>> Stephen: WHAT WAS BEFORE COFFEE.
WHAT WOULD BE WORLD BE LIKE IF COFFEE HADN'T COME ALONG F BY IF
IT NEVER ENTERED THE LEXICON.
>> IF COFFEE AND TEA HAD NEVER SHOIN THE WORLD WOULD BE DRUNK,
BASICALLY, ALL THE TIME.
>> Stephen: WE WOULD DRINK A TON.
>> ALL THE TIME BECAUSE ALCOHOL WAS SAFER THAN WATER.
BECAUSE YOU GOT DISEASES FROM WATER.
THE ALCOHOL SANITIZED THE WATER.
BUT WHEN COFFEE AND TEA CAME AROUND, THIS DRUG HAD USED BOIL
WATT SOAR IT WAS THE SAFEST THING PEOPLE HAD EVER HAD,
ACTUALLY.
SO BEFORE COFFEE ENTERED WESTERN HISTORY, PEOPLE ARE DRINKING
MORNING, NOON AND NIGHT, CHILDREN ARE DRINKING MORNING,
NOON AND NIGHT AND EVERYBODY IS BUZZED.
ARE YOU NOT GOING TO HAVE AN ENLIGHTENMENT, YOU ARE NOT GOING
TO AN INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION, YOU CAN'T BE DOUBLE ENTRY BOOK
KEEPING WHEN YOU ARE BOMBED.
THERE IS PSYCHO TROPIC TOURISM NOW AND IS THAT WELL, FOR LACK
OF A BETTER WORD, IS THAT A GOOD THING?
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT IS DANGEROUS.
I THINK THAT THERE ARE FAKE SHAMANS ALL OVER THE AMAZON, I
THINK PEOPLE HAVE TO BE REALLY CARE FFL THEY ARE THINK BEING
DOING SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THERE ARE RETREAT CENTERS NOW WHERE
YOU CAN HAVE GUIDED PSYCHEDELIC EXPERIENCES, SOME GOOD, SOME ARE
NOT.
YOU HAVE TO HAVE YOUR EYES OPEN.
YOU HAVE TO APPROACH THIS WITH GREAT CARE.
>> Stephen: YOU SOUND LIKE YOURSELF, A GUIDED PSYCHOTROPIC.
>> I HAVE DONE A COUPLE GUIDED EXPERIENCES WHICH I FOUND
INCREDIBLY USEFUL, NOT JUST JOURNALISTICICALLY.
I NEEDED TO DO IT TO WRITE ABOUT IT.
I DID IT FOR MY READERS.
>> Stephen: OFFICER.
>> OFFICER, I'M DOING THIS FOR MY READERS.
>> Stephen: THAT SAY LEGIT MASS DEFENSE.
>> BUT I ALSO LEARNED THINGS ABOUT MYSELF.
THEY'RE INCREDIBLE EXPERIENCES, THEY BRING UP ISSUES.
YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE MEMORIES YOU DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE.
LAST TIME I WAS HERE WE TALKED ABOUT THE DISLUSION OF MY EGO.
YOU KNOW, WHICH IS AN UNUSUAL THING TO TALK ABOUT ON NETWORK
TELEVISION.
BUT THINGS-- MOSTLY ABOUT EGO.
>> RIGHT.
>> NOT SO MUCH DISLUSION.
>> BUT IT PROVED TO BE VERY THERAPEUTIC.
WE NOW HAVE STUDIES AND THERE HAVE BEEN A WHOLE LOT OF STUDY
SINCE 2018.
THAT DEMONSTRATE THAT MUSHROOMS ARE EFFECTIVE FOR TREATING
DEPRESSION, ADDICTION, OBSESSIVE EXULSIVE DISORDER, ANXIETY AND
THE FEAR OF PEOPLE WITH CANCER DIAGNOSIS.
AND THEN MDMA WHICH IS ALSO KNOWN AS EXSTASSEE HAS BEEN
ALREADY DEMONSTRATED TO BE VERY USEFUL IN THE TREATMENT OF
TRAUMA.
PTSD.
SO THINGS ARE CHAKING QUICKLY.
WE NOW HAVE PEOPLE IN CONGRESS WHO ARE, CORY BOOKER AND RAND
PAUL JUST TODAY INTRODUCED A BILL TO MAKE PSYCHEDELIC THERAPY
AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE WITH TERMINAL DYING KNOW CEASE.
YEAH.
SO WITHIN FIVE YEARS, WITHIN FIVE YEARS, MUSHROOMS AND MBMA
WILL BE DRUGS THAT DOCTORS CAN PRESCRIBE.
>> Stephen: PLEASE COME BACK IN FIVE YEARS.
>> I HOPE BEFORE THAT.
>> Stephen: WITH A DOCTOR.
MICHAEL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANK YOU.
>> Stephen: HOW TO CHANGE YOUR MIND IS NOW A SERIES ON NETFLIX.
AND HIS BOOK, THIS IS YOUR MIND ON PLANTS IS AVAILABLE NOW.
MICHAEL POLLAN, EVERYBODY.
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.