cia director william burns told the senate intelligence committee today that he believes
russia's president vladimir putin is losing the so-called information war over ukraine and
that this may chip away at his domestic support for the invasion but what exactly are russian
citizens hearing about this war on russian media william brangham explains on tv screens and social
media feeds around the world it's an endless stream of the brutality and terror of russia's
invasion of ukraine they behave like fascists but in russia the script is flipped upside
down and for russian citizens this means they're seeing a distorted reality of their nation's war
we didn't attack ukraine as we have been explaining many times they created the threat
against the russian federation foreign minister sergey lavrov today repeated this false accusation
it was the same one putin used as a pretense for launching the invasion
we will strive for the demilitization and denuzification of ukraine
and will bring to justice those who committed multiple bloody crimes against civilians
putin said he was launching a limited military operation one intended to save ukrainians from
a genocide it's a familiar distortion it's one putin used in a speech announcing his annexation
of crimea a peninsula in ukraine back in 2014. the initiators of that coup d'etat
were nationalists anti-semites radicals now the kremlin is tightening the reins on media even more
last week putin signed a law that effectively criminalizes accurate reporting about the war
even the ward war itself is banned publishing so-called false information is now punishable
with up to 15 years in prison the government forced the independent channel tv rain to close
its editors signed off by playing swan lake a clear jab at the government which played the
same loop on state tv in 1991 when a failed coup was underway against mikhail gorbachev
russian authorities also shuttered the country's last independent radio station echo of moscow it's
banned facebook too though russians can still use apps like telegram whatsapp and instagram for now
instead the government is steering propaganda at even the youngest russians
releasing this virtual lesson on quote why the liberation mission in ukraine is necessary good
evening and welcome russian disinformation gets a boost from some u.s media as well fox news's
tucker carlson has repeatedly criticized u.s involvement in ukraine and expressed those clips
have made it on to russian news these people are so ghoulish and of course they're promoting war
in the
of many that u.s can listen to and wait for themselves but as the cringe of putin's war
continues the reality for many russians is only as real as their government allows
and joining me now is anton shirakov he researches disinformation and propaganda
inside russia at the university of wisconsin anton very good to have you on the newshour um
so we touched on a little bit of of the the media that the russian people are seeing can
you give us a better sense of what the average russian is seeing about ukraine on their news
yes um thank you for having me first of all um so what russians are seeing is mainly that there
is some military reaction going on in ukraine but this is all very targeted this is targeted against
nazi battalions against military infrastructure it doesn't hurt any civilians and
most ukrainians are welcoming russians they want to get rid of their corrupt and
fascist government but the government is is resisting and governing forces
are resisting and so that's why uh russian forces are in ukraine in these depictions
of certain parts of ukrainian society being fascist or nazi as you're as you're mentioning
those as you have written uh tie into a fairly long history as far as russian information about
the ukrainians can you explain that a bit more the reason is long history so ukraine has been a thorn
and put inside increment side for quite a while ukraine had a couple of successful
social revolutions where pro-russian governments were toppled and um and the kremlin has been
trying to portray all those revolutions and the democratic development in ukraine since then as um
as those corrupt attempts to install um install a regime it doesn't have public support that is
installed by the west and so and that ties into this why the narrative that the russian government
is um is promoting that uh nato and the west are behind most of russia's troubles and this is one
of them um so and they are speaking to this uh to this grievance that russia has russians have uh
because of the soviet collapse because of um the west winning this cold war and that this is what
the government is trying to exploit and can i ask you sort of a chicken or the egg question is this
does this media feed into people's preconceived notions or does this media
create those notions i think it's both um so there is definitely a lot of
lot of grievances about the west a lot of bad feelings towards the west um but what propaganda
does it builds on those and it constantly provides information that's consistent with uh with those
beliefs and if you repeat this if you throw a lot of of those false narratives then people
uh over time people get used to them and they sort of start uh think they they they believe they they
feel like they've believed this already before um so so this this is this is a feedback loop
essentially we've been hearing certain reports of ukrainians calling family members in russia saying
you know we're under attack the bombs are going off and that their relatives in russia are saying
what are you talking about that's not happening i mean that has got to be an incredibly jarring
experience for ukrainians to have their basic reality being denied yes that that is that is
terrible that is absurd i mean i i myself having relatives in russia have uh had similar experience
um when when i say that yes ukrainian cities are bombed by russians they say no nothing like that
is happening um it's just those nazi battalions that are um making provocations they are
they are just pretending that there is something going on but really we are there to help that's it
given that there are these other social media and messaging apps like instagram and telegram and
whatsapp that are available can people get uh an accurate portrayal of what's happening in ukraine
if they want it i think if they wanted they still could so on telegram there are um there are still
channels that that cover ukraine uh truthfully or more or less um people can use a vpn they
could go to one of independent video websites that are still working they are working mostly
well from outside of russia but they're they're available yet um so so if you want you can uh but
most people in russia still don't seem like they want it there are seemingly some signs that this
facade is starting to crack we read some reports today about some state broadcasters mentioning
that the sanctions are biting quite hard in russia and perhaps the president ought to consider
dialing back as they call it this limited operation do you think that that is real
do you think that facade will continue to crack i think that's that's a billion dollar question for
now um so there are probably some some people who some anchors some people on on tv who said
something like that but the question is if this descent would be uh would be eliminated quickly
i think uh the government will still be able to um to hold this impression of winning of being
on the right side for some time but i think what's what's more important is that people would still
start feeling the new reality soon because of the sanctions because of because of um unfortunately
because of the bodies that are coming home from ukraine so i think that might have more
a deeper impact on on russia's perceptions of the war right there's a certain level that you just
simply can't escape the fact that your economy is tanking and your people are dying i'm anton
shirakov from the university of wisconsin thank you so much for being here thank you