- Today we're focusing on President Trump's
relentless effort to pressure Mike Pence
to refuse to count electoral votes on January 6th.
- During the meeting on January 4th,
Mr Eastman was opining
that there were two legally viable arguments
as to authorities that the vice president
could exercise two days later, on January 6th.
One of them was that he could reject electoral votes outright.
The other was that he could use his capacity
as presiding officer to suspend the proceedings
and declare, essentially, a 10-day recess.
- Did the vice president ever waver in his position
that he could not unilaterally decide which electors to accept?
- The vice president never budged from the position
that I have described as his first instinct,
which was that it just made no sense,
from everything that he knew
and had studied about our Constitution,
that one person would have that kind of authority.
- All the players, led by Mr Eastman,
got wrapped around the axle
by the historical evidence claim.
If I had been advising the vice president of the United States
on January 6th,
and even if then-Vice President Jefferson had done
exactly what the president of the United States
wanted his vice president to do,
I would have laid my body across the road
before I would have let the vice president
overturn the 2020 election.
- So then you said at some point
there's a telephone conversation between the president
and the vice president, is that correct?
- Yes. - When I entered the office
the second time, he was on the telephone
with who I later found out to be was the vice president.
- Could you hear the vice president,
or only hear the president's end?
- Only heard the president's end.
Then at some point, it started off as a calmer tone
and everything, and then became heated.
- The conversation was -- was pretty heated.
- I think till it became somewhat,
you know, a louder tone,
I don't think anyone was paying attention to it initially.
- Did you hear any part of the phone call,
even if just the end that the president was speaking from?
- I did, yes.
- Alright. And what did you hear?
- So, as I was dropping off the note, my memory,
I remember hearing the word "wimp."
Either he called him a wimp -- I don't remember if he said,
"You are a wimp," "You'll be a wimp."
"Wimp" is the word I remember. - It's also been reported
that the president said to the vice president that --
something to the effect of, "You don't have the courage
to make a hard decision."
- I don't remember exactly, either, but something like that.
Yeah. - Like, being --
"You're not tough enough to make the call."
- Mr Jacob, how would you describe the demeanor
of the vice president following the call,
following that call with the president?
- When he came back into the room,
I'd say that he was steely, determined, grim.
- Vice President Pence and his team ultimately
were led to a secure location,
where they stayed for the next 4 1/2 hours,
barely missing rioters a few feet away.
- Mr Jacob, did Donald Trump ever call the vice president
to check on his safety?
- He did not.
- Mr Jacob, how did Vice President Pence
and Mrs Pence react to that?
- With frustration.
- So, Mr McCarthy indicated he'd been in touch
with someone at the White House and he conveyed to you
that they weren't taking this as seriously as they should.
You have to answer yes or no.
- Yes. - Okay.
- The day after, Eastman --
I don't remember why he called me.
Or he texted me or called me, wanted to talk with me,
and he said he couldn't reach others.
And he started to ask me about something
dealing with Georgia preserving
something potentially for appeal.
I said to him, "Are you out of your effing mind?"
Right.
I said, "I only want to hear two words
coming out of your mouth from now on --
orderly transition."
And then I screamed, I said, "I don't want to hear
any other effing words coming out of your mouth,
no matter what, other than orderly transition.
Repeat those words to me."
And after doing that -- -What did he say?
- Eventually, he said, "Orderly transition."
I said, "Good, John.
Now I'm gonna give you the best free legal advice
you're ever getting in your life.
Get a great effing criminal defense lawyer.
You're gonna need it."