Judy: A series of recently
opened Vatican archives are
shedding
on the relationship between pope
Pius XII and Adolf hitler as he
led Nazi Germany during world
War II -- shedding new light on
the relationship.
>> In 2020, the Vatican released
millions of documents on pope
Pius XII that were previously
hidden from public you.
They include transcript of
negotiations between the pope
and Nazis.
A new book published today takes
a deeper look at these
revelations.
Historian David Kurtzer is the
author of that book called "The
pope at war: The secret history
of Pius XII, mussolini, and
Adolf hitler."
A lot of folks know previous
versions of history around Pius
XII one of two ways.
He was either called hitler's
pope, and anti-semi, or an
official who did everything he
could to save Jews during the
war.
What is your view?
>> Neither one is really
accurate.
They are both extremes.
The fact is Pius XII was afraid,
certainly during the first years
of the war, that the Nazis were
going to win, so he had to
prepare for a Europe that was
going to be under Nazi control.
So his main concern in those
early years was to protect the
church in a time when Europe
could be under Nazi control.
It was not that he loved the
Nazis, much less hitler's, but
this was his thinking.
>> What does that mean when you
say protect the church?
You mention the meeting we now
know happened between the pope
and a personal envoy of
hitler's.
>> Probably the most shocking
finding from these archives that
just opened after 50 years of
pressure and interest in being
able to see what they contain is
that within weeks of Pius being
elected pope -- he is elected in
early 1939 -- hitler's saw an
opportunity and decided to send
a personal envoy, who himself is
a rather colorful character.
The great-grandson of queen
Victoria of England, a Nazi
prince who was married to the
daughter of the king of Italy,
and he would begin to shuttle
back and forth between hitler
and the pope for years engaged
in secret negotiations.
We did not know about these
until just now.
>> When it comes down to what
pope Pius XII did or did not do
in terms of saving lives, can
you tell about on October night
in Rome?
>> October 6, 19 43, the ss had
lists of all the Jews in Rome
and went door-to-door and tried
to arrest all of Rome's Jews.
They found about 1260, arrested
them, brought them to a military
college just outside the walls
of the Vatican and held them
there for two days.
What we have learned from these
recently opened archives is that
the Vatican worked very hard to
show that some of them had been
baptized and therefore should
not be considered Jews from the
point of view of the church and
therefore should not be shipped
off to ashridge -- to auschwitz
with the rest of them and that
about 250 were freed before two
days later they were put on a
train of 1007, of whom, I think
about 16 would survive.
The pope did send his cardinal
secretary of state to meet with
the German ambassador to say, do
you really need to go through
with this?
Can you do something about this?
But the ambassador told the
cardinal secretary of state's
have been ordered by the highest
level, and you don't want me to
protest on your behalf, do you?
And the cardinal secretary of
state said no, I'm not insisting
on any protests.
>> The Vatican has come forward
when previous allegations were
made.
Have they responded in any way
to your reporting?
>> Other national Roman catholic
churches have come to terms with
this history, and part of the
history is how was that in the
middle of the 20th century that
millions of Jews could be
massacred, little children, old
people, by people who thought of
themselves at -- as Christian?
More than half of them Roman
catholics, but also protestants.
The Vatican released a statement
in I think 1998 in which they
said their own demonization of
the Jews had absolutely nothing
to do with the holocaust.
I think my book is probably not
entirely appreciated by many of
the Vatican, although there are
those in the Vatican when I
worked in the archives who have
whispered to me they are happy
this is finally coming out.
>> What about how we view all
these years later the role of
pope Pius XII and the leadership
of the church?
There has been a push all these
years later for his sainthood.
>> The pope has tried to
beatified and canonized by the
conservatives of the church who
see the church as having gone
wrong after his death with the
second Vatican council under his
successor, John XXIII.
First of all, I wish they would
read this book, but I also wish
they would be willing to
consider this history under, but
I'm afraid for those who really
do not have an open mind, and it
is unlikely it will change their
minds, so I think the drive to
make a saint up Pius XII will
continue.
>> Thank you so much.
>> Thank you.