AS WE CLOSE OUT OUR CELEBRATION OF BLACK HISTORY MONTH, CARRIE
SALDO TALKS WITH BASEBALL HISTORIAN DORON GOLDMAN ABOUT
THE HISTORY OF NEGRO LEAGUE BASEBALL AS WELL AS MAJOR LEAGUE
BASEBALL HALL OF FAME PLAYER MONTE IRVIN, WHO MADE THE JUMP
FROM THE NEGRO LEAGUES TO THE MAJOR LEAGUES AND WOULD HAVE
CELEBRATED HIS 100TH BIRTHDAY THIS YEAR.
>> I WAS DOING RESEARCH ON WORLD WAR II, SOMETHING CALLED THE
DOUBLE VICTORY CAMPAIGN, WHICH SWEPT BLACK AMERICA, AND IT'S
BEEN CREDITED, IN A SENSE, OF HAVING SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE
PROCESS OF BASEBALL INTEGRATION.
I KNEW SOMEBODY WHO HAD CONNECTIONS WITH MONTE, AND
MONTE HAD SERVED IN WORLD WAR II, SO I INTERVIEWED HIM OVER
THE PHONE, AND EVENTUALLY I HAD A CHANCE TO MEET HIM.
LIKE IT OFTEN IS WHEN YOU FIRST HEAR ABOUT SOMEBODY, THEN YOU
DIG IN A LITTLE BIT AND FIND OUT, WOW, I HAD KNOWN ABOUT HIM
BUT I DIDN'T REALIZE WHAT A PIONEER HE WAS.
WHEN I REALLY FOUND OUT HE WAS THE GUY THAT MANY PEOPLE
ORIGINALLY THOUGHT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE PERSON TO INTEGRATE
BASEBALL IN THE LATE 1940s THAT MADE IT EVEN MORE INTRIGUING.
>> TO THAT POINT, WHY WAS IT THAT HE WASN'T THE PERSON
BECAUSE JACKIE ROBINSON IS THE NAME THAT WE ALL KNOW AS THE MAN
WHO INTEGRATED BASEBALL?
>> BECAUSE MONTE WENT ESSENTIALLY TO EUROPE FOR WORLD
WAR II IN 1943.
HE WAS AWAY FOR TWO YEARS AND HE SUFFERED FROM IT.
HE CAME BACK WITH AN INNER EAR PROBLEM.
AND SOME DEGREE OF SHELL SHOCK SO HE WASN'T READY IN 1945.
MEANWHILE, JACKIE ROBINSON HAD SERVED IN WORLD WAR II AS WELL.
HE HAD BEEN HONORABLY DISCHARGED.
HE THEN PLAYED IN THE NEGRO LEAGUE BRIEFLY IN 1945 AND WAS
AVAILABLE.
AND THEN GENERAL MANAGER AND PART OWNER OF THE DODGERS
DECIDED THE TIME HAD COME.
SO HE THEN WENT AHEAD AND TALKED TO JACKIE.
HE APPARENTLY DID TALK TO MONTE THAT YEAR AS WELL AND MONTE CAME
HOME FROM THE WAR AROUND SEPTEMBER OF 1945.
WHEN JACKIE HAD ACTUALLY ALREADY BEEN SIGNED BUT IT HAD NOT BEEN
ANNOUNCED, AND MONTE TOLD KIKI AND OTHER DODGER OFFICIALS, I'M
NOT READY.
>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING HE DECIDED TO, EVEN THOUGH HE COULD
HAVE TAKEN ON THIS HISTORIC ROLE, DECIDED TO LET SOMEONE
ELSE STEP UP AND TAKE IT.
>> YEAH.
I GUESS I WOULD SAY, AGAIN, JACKIE WAS GOING TO BE FIRST BUT
MONTE COULD HAVE BEEN RIGHT ALONGSIDE HIM.
SO HE COULD HAVE BEEN MAYBE RIGHT AFTERWARDS OR EVEN PERHAPS
HE COULD HAVE GOTTEN TO THE MAJORS FIRST, BUT ENDED UP NOT
GETTING TO THE MAJORS UNTIL 1949.
TWO YEARS AFTER JACKIE.
>> HE DID EVENTUALLY, AS YOU POINT OUT, IN YOUR RESEARCH, HE
WAS THE NINTH PERSON TO JOIN THE MAJOR LEAGUES.
AT THAT POINT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN 30 YEARS OLD WHICH BY TODAY'S
STANDARDS IN BASEBALL SEEMS A BIT OLD.
>> IT WAS BY THOSE STANDARDS, TOO.
>> WAS IT REALLY?
>> SURE, YEAH.
>> SO HOW DID HE FIT IN?
>> HIS FIRST YEAR HE DIDN'T DO TERRIBLY WELL.
HE ONLY BATTED .224 AND HIT NO HOME RUNS IN 36 GAMES.
HE WENT BACK TO THE MINOR LEAGUES IN THE 19 50SS.
HE HAD A RAMPAGE IN THE MINOR LEAGUES AND HIS FIRST 18 GAMES
OF THE 1950 SEASON PLAYING FOR THE JERSEY CITY GIANTS, HE WENT
WIDE.
HE HIT 10 HOME RUNS IN 18 GAMES.
YOU KNOW, BASICALLY, BY HIS PLAY DEMANDED THAT THEY BRING HIM UP.
THEN HE WAS 31 AND THAT'S WHEN HE REALLY MADE HIS IMPACT.
AT THAT POINT HE BECAME A MAJOR LEAGUE STAR.
>> HE JOINED THE NEW YORK GIANTS AT THAT POINT, RIGHT?
>> RIGHT.
>> IN THE OUTFIELD.
TELL ME ABOUT THE LEGACY THERE?
>> THAT HAPPENED ALMOST BY ACCIDENT IN 1951.
THE MANAGER OF THE GIANTS WAS MANEUVERING PLAYERS.
HE WAS A PRETTY MASTERFUL MANAGER AND HE MANEUVERED THEM
AROUND SO FOR THE WORLD SERIES HE ENDED UP PUTTING HANK
THOMPSON AND MONTE IRVIN AND THE GREAT WILLIE MAYS AND MONTE WAS
WILLIE'S ROOMMATE.
>> WHILE THEY HAVE THESE PARALLEL TRACKS, THEY BOTH WOULD
BE A HUNDRED THIS YEAR.
>> CORRECT.
>> THEY BOTH PLAYED THESE VERY INTEGRAL ROLES IN THE PART OF
MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL.
FOR IRVIN'S PART, HE WAS MORE OF A BEHIND THE SCENES GUY AND YOU
MENTIONED IT BRIEFLY BUT TALK A LITTLE MORE ABOUT HOW HE
MENTORED SOME OF THE PLAYERS.
>> WELL, WHEN WILLIE MAYS CAME UP HE WAS NOT YET 20 YEARS OLD
AND MONTE WAS THE FIRST PLAYER HE MET AND HE GOT PUT WITH
WILLIE.
WILLIE HAS SAID WHEN MONTE DIED THREE YEARS AGO, HE SAID MONTE
WAS LIKE A SECOND FATHER TO HIM.
MONTE KNEW WHEN WILLIE FELT STRESSED EVEN WHEN WILLIE DIDN'T
SAY HE WAS.
MONTE KNEW WHEN TO GIVE HIM ENCOURAGEMENT, WHEN TO PUSH HIM
AND WHEN TO EASE BACK.
HE SAID MONTE WAS AS WISE AND GENEROUS AND AS TOUGH AS THEY
COME.
>> WOW!
FOR HIS PART THIS YEAR JACKIE ROBINSON WILL BE CELEBRATED BY
MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL.
IT WAS RECENTLY ANNOUNCED DURING WHAT WOULD BE HIS 100TH
BIRTHDAY, SEASON WOULD BE DEDICATED TO HIM.
DO YOU THINK MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL IS MAKING A MISSTEP BY
NOT ALSO CELEBRATING IRVIN WHO WOULD BE HITTING THAT MILESTONE?
>> I THINK AND I WOULD HOPE HE WOULD GET SOME ATTENTION.
THINK THEY SHOULD CELEBRATE HIM.
I RECOGNIZE AND I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT JACKIE WAS THE
GROUND BREAKER, BUT MONTE WAS THE GUY WHO MENTORED SO MANY
DIFFERENT PLAYERS.
ANOTHER EARLY AFRICAN-AMERICAN NAMED BROOKS LAWRENCE SAID THAT
MONTE WAS THE BLACK -- THE BLACK PLAYERS LOOKED TO MONTE FOR
SUPPORT, NOT JACKIE.
SO I FEEL LIKE IT'S A THEME IN OUR CULTURE THAT THE PERSON WHO
IS FIRST, THE PERSON WHO WINS, GETS ALL OF THE ATTENTION, AND I
THINK MONTE SHOULD ALSO GET ATTENTION FOR THE ROLE HE
PLAYED.
>> AND JACKIE ROBINSON PASSED AWAY MUCH YOUNGER IN LIFE.
HE WAS 52, I THINK, WHEN HE PASSED AWAY.
>> RIGHT.
>> WHERE MONTE LIVED TO BE -- >> ALMOST 97.
>> HE DIED IN 2016.
>> CORRECT.
>> DID HE TALK ABOUT THE STATE OF THE GAME AS HE SAW IT
EVOLVING THROUGH THE YEARS?
DID HE TALK ABOUT DIVERSITY OR THE LACK THEREOF?
>> SURE, ALL OF THOSE THINGS.
>> WHAT DID HE SAY?
>> HE WAS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT FELT LIKE PROGRESS IS MADE
IF YOU DON'T, YOU KNOW, BEING CONTINUE VERSE VERSIAL DIDN'T
NECESSARILY CONTRIBUTE BUT BEING PART OF THE SCENE WAS IMPORTANT.
SO HE WOULD TALK VERY OPENLY ABOUT RACISM AND HE FELT THERE
WAS SOME RACISM IN BASEBALL BUT HE ALSO FELT, HE OFTEN TALKED
ABOUT HOW HIS NEW YORK GIANTS TEAMMATES ACCEPTED HIM READILY
AND HE BECAME, YOU KNOW, FRIENDLY WITH MANY OF THEM.
HE WORKED IN THE COMMISSIONER'S OFFICE IN THE 1960s AND 1970s
AND 1980s SO I THINK HE WORKED MORE BEHIND THE SCENES.
>> HE WENT ON TO HAVE SOME OTHER ROLES.
WHAT DID HE DO TO STAY CONNECTED TO THE GAME?
>> HE WAS THE CHAIR OF THE VETERANS COMMITTEE THAT DECIDED
ON MOST OF THE FIRST NEGRO LEAGUE PLAYERS TO GET INTO THE
HALL OF FAME SO HE HELPED TO SHEPHERD THEIR PASSAGE.
HE WROTE AN AUTO BIOGRAPHY TALKING ABOUT THE NEGRO LEAGUES.
HE WAS INTERVIEWED BY ALMOST EVERYBODY.
I MET HIM WHEN HE WAS 94.
HE WAS JUST SO WELCOMING.
HE JUST MADE HIMSELF AVAILABLE.
SO EVERYBODY QUOTED HIM.
EVERYBODY SPOKE TO HIM.
HE WROTE INTRODUCTIONS FOR ALL SORTS OF BOOKS.
BOOKS ON THE NEGRO LEAGUES, ON BLACK PLAYERS.
ALONG WITH BUCK O'NEAL.
MONTE WAS SIMILAR.
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK HE WOULD THINK ABOUT THE DIVERSITY RATES
IN BASEBALL, RELATIVELY LOW IF YOU THINK ABOUT 70 YEARS OF
AFRICAN-AMERICANS PLAYING IN THE MAJOR LEAGUES, IT STILL HOVERS
AROUND 7%?
>> RIGHT.
YOU KNOW, I THINK HE WOULD THINK THAT IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT IT'S
DIPPED THIS LOW, AND I DIDN'T ACTUALLY HAVE A CHANCE TO TALK
DIRECTLY TO HIM ABOUT IT.
BUT MY GUESS IS, HE WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, BASEBALL NEEDS TO DO
MORE.
I THINK JACKIE ROBINSON'S INITIATIVE IS BASEBALL'S ATTEMPT
THIS YEAR TO DRAW MORE ATTENTION TO THE ISSUE BUT I THINK IT'S A
VERY HARD THING TO CHANGE, AND I THINK IT'S ALSO KIND OF A PUBLIC
RELATIONS THING THAT BASEBALL IS DOING.