really offsets
its pleasure to welcome to the program having impose writer and author I love
rise of the warrior cop a radley Balko Radley welcome to the program
I'm a quarter tank I'm am so I Radley let's start we give us a little bit %uh
vay
a historical context when did the
the cop start to rise to becoming a a warrior
well I think it goes back
to the late sixties actually I turned experience in civil unrest
a.m. you US I in really the
precipitating incident was probably the watts riots 1965 in LA
I the headed the the in San
inspector at the LAPD I'm about to become is cheap daryl gates
I was in charge I'll LAPD's reaction to the rights and
he was alarms that I
because the department do we have an act that way of responding
axes kind so the emergency situation to read lives in the
risk I and active shooter is a riot
I'll hostage takings no emergency type situation
I came up with this idea I
to turn the military I military hat the no special forces I
schemes that I could respond quickly
%ah who are no be highly-trained specialized I
anchored years you would use overwhelming force too quickly
I defuse a violent situation on so we
put together this what this team any color they are
Joaquin and he I initially babe responsibility was interesting man
actually
I did not it's a great partner did not like the idea is that it tried to close
to art greeting the line between
I the tactical police and the military that week to decide
respect than the last I hear whether legal news he took over the gate
got the green light to go ahead with this idea after a couple
high-profile raid on one on the black panthers one on the
and the Liberation Army ever nationally televised
and I really can't have propelled this idea joaquim into the
popular culture and by the nineteen seventies pretty much every large city
in the country
I had one we the thing about
the seventies knowing that the early the first decade or so
what is that they were they were always reserved for the and emergency
situations where you're
you're using by one to defuse an alright already violent situation and your
saving lives better are your risk hospital in the nineteen eighties that
we started the
biking a converge with the drug war
and we started the a massive massive increase and E
uses why %uh mostly to serve warrant
on people suspected drug crime and
no hear you're using violence are you actually creating beilin
but there was none before you're not using violence to
you know de-escalate something you know and already violent situation
I and your YouTube what actually is an investigative tool
I'll know we force walking for use with people who know when the processor
committing crimes so there's no question about that ill
I but by in the 80's 90's &
not until today what is overwhelmingly used against people who
you're not only a haven't been convicted of any crime
I but has have you been charged and the police are still in the
evidence-gathering stated their investigation
and that's really where nope and most the
a my criticism in the book comes I it's not
an anti squat worker and by copyright even at look at the policies that really
a behind this shift from using
what emerges education use in a more proactively and and then
as an investigative cool in it seems to me to do that
the the Serta the the culture around
swat if if you if you can call it that
his sort have bled into the the police department I mean I remember in the
early eighties
I N in in my hometown Massachusetts
having some SWAT guy come to our classroom or something
and the a the the IDS what was just very it seem compartmentalized that it was a
very specific group of police
I who on the force who had access to the year
and had access to the training and it seems on some level that that that serve
comparte
the I don't wanna collar firewall but it
whatever it was it seems like that wall has sort of
maybe in some respects just disappeared totally
yeah and I think that's a larger story here that this culture of
I'll militarization as let out be on the swat teams
I and it really affected I a lot of police departments across the country
are more and more widespread way in I mean
you know it isn't just the paramilitary tactics but it's also a mindset
I'm along with the explosions a
the number use a SWAT teams we seen I
you know politicians that constantly told police officers at the fight more
surprising was on drugs and crime
on terrorism I and you know please allow to respond to switch from the
traditional police blues
what they call BTU's are battle dress uniforms
this know they've they've adopted more military look
I and yes you can see this in you know the
the the way that police officers approached their jobs I
if you take a copy for a min you know soldiers clothing and give them
soldiers weapons and in a minute soldiers tactic for men
and about on the street and tom is fighting a war
that's going to have I you know an impact on the way he approaches
jobs in the way because the job really interact with the community that he
serves
to tell us a little bit about what that impact is
when the the rubber meets the road because I i think that
I think that dynamic I love you know you start dressing someone like a
a member the paramilitary organization they're gonna start to feel like they're
a member of the paramilitary organization mean what are the
implications are that
in terms of policing get what I mean in addition to just that you know the
explosion in the number swat teams but I i think you know he's getting a lot of
I if you get a police discussion board online you know
to see a lot of fun iterations that the phrase
a base with Becca I'll do whatever have to do to get home safely at night
I any luck that is a a battlefield
mentality right I'm gonna do whatever I have to do to get home safe
I that is not not a far cry from protected protect and serve or
keep the peace I'm there is a
the police officers are are told every day that their job is
I you know extremely dangerous and and getting more dangerous impact
I noted certainly important research job in mind the journalist but
did the job does not mean not that usually not in the top 15 or 20 most
dangerous jobs in the country
I in a vacuum it a cup car accident I
the odds are they results are being killed murdered on the job about the
same as
I being murdered by living and most large cities in the US
I'll so you know this isn't the no
I I diminish the fact that some police officers accident on the job
the problem with this is that your the job last year also been a pressure that
I'll acid say your with officers substance or 1960
I into the comment is it up with others every day that
I you know their job is extremely dangerous in every interaction with the
president could be their last
I you encourage them to start seeing citizen
as blacks and every citizen as a potential threat and person who
you know mate people the one who prevent them from going home at night
and that really fosters a a are
you know an antagonistic relationship again between cops in
in the community I'm you see this with
other stop snitching movement that kinda bubbled up in a number city
and you know what do you think that movement and I understand people who
find it
you know repugnant the idea that people will cooperate with police even
in a murder investigation for example com you don't understand
gonna behind it and it's pretty remarkable that there are entire
no communities in this country where a residential community
I your could be more than they fear the people the police are supposed to be
protecting them from
and I think we need to look at you know why that is the know you can blame it on
the pop culture if you want but
I not think there is something more and a fundamentalist a connection that is it
goes back to
again this shit and releasing them be seen in the last generation or so
so was it i mean i i know that
you really focus on on the drug war
as being sort of the the catalyst or I should say the
maybe the fuel that the that was added to the sort of a fire that had bedded
begun in terms of creating swat teams
I just outlined for us sort of how that other drug war evolved in
what up what laws that came in
that sorta followed I guess on a parallel track or maybe
I am a one that should have drove
this the this change in police culture
yet you know the good word
again in the next administration and when he declared war on drugs
I'll by you know the address what but what phenomenon was basically
trip being born same time but is it a bit easier to transfer repair love one
another throughout the nineteen
seventy I nixon you know did have out is like no not grade
I but it was applied to you
I corner out across basic up to our
you know I in street clothes or and no contorted
uniform is once wattenberg in the israeli early on
it was really going the reagan administration every the be used for
our team for drug raid take often other couple reasons for that one is
a Iranian really kinda blurred the line between police and military
know by the National Guard to start writing the drug war at one point even
tried to bring active-duty troops and start conducting searches and making
arrests
I'm I will one few bad idea accident at didn't
become policy I do in nineteen eighties but know he created these joint we
joint task force's that I encourage cooperation between the military and
police
in domestically of the drug interdiction efforts I
and then certainly make I military equipment available we
apartment across the country and the you know this is a policy that continued
ever since then
what we've seen is literally millions of people
agreement that was designed for use on a battlefield I
has been given to you domestic release for use on American streets and
American neighborhoods and against American citizen you were talking paying
and our personnel carriers and helicopters & Gun
bayonet I and you know this is I
this has been going on for you know 30 five years now there's never really been
any
no public debate over public discussion about whether it's appropriate
are building the that reagan began has continued ever sent to be created the
inside federal anti-drug grant and you know we have a history in this country
of
a determining criminal justice law enforcement power
Libya the local official side they now decide what laws are
could be a priority in I didn't know enforce laws in a way to reflect
community standards and
community values and any expectation and I
really be unacceptable we saw during reagan & again a container centers
are more heavily federal influence on
in I in local policing and pick the weather gonna sit through this grant
I'm and even tho governments are taking you free money available to police
department
Arbor catches you know our are rules are
a requirement that you nor is get this money your record and more drug police
they were
or the score these grants are only going to go a
toward drug policing ok you it makes every drug rafter complicated how much
a I minimal corneal ulcer drugs in order to get these grand
now no drug we can become a much higher priority so you got other
year that you got for free I this artist walking
million people lucky man reserved for in wafer wanna be
emergency type situation but you know that at quite interpreted for
I or you could certainly use walking out on drug raids now
and there's all this money that comes with that and and I just watching Black
Star generate revenue for the police department
up to what a difficult decision after logically second the
missus really happy she's walking object to be routinely use
I to serve drug weren't our search warrants in drug cases
talk to talk about how I these
these drug cases can actually generate revenue for a police department
we gonna get the federal grants that I
mention that but only got a good goalie at the represents walking out to
arrest murder a suspected murder others no federal money that comes with that
is an obstacle the to gray you know a couple people suspected of dealing or
I you know smoking pot a enter make the arrest
obvious federal money that that is attached to that cabinet also asset
forfeiture
I which is the out the civil at for Twitter which says that
know if you rate a place and you can make even a loose connection between any
kasher
no car how and any kind of drug activity
the police and then feat that property I
and it's up to the properties all turn out to crew
that they are on the property legitimately and basically a prove a
negative
I and you know you but but property owner actually never even need to be
charged with a crime
and the police are able to the owner can't prove
they are legitimately and everything about something you all did
your at the PRU you bought them a Roman legitimately are difficult that would be
I the push for me to keep it and ready to go back to the park
and this is almost always tried to Truckee there are some
other crime but property comes with a smoke the drug cases
again there's another incentive you know and a SWAT team out
on these programs in how much also
I am did the did sort of the
a war on terror add to this because it seems to me that there was just
a tremendous amount of money that was earmarked
for a for homeland security
as it were which a he again it's one of those situations where
win what's interesting is that
mean is this money a necessarily earmarked
to the to buy equipment
or is it is it up to the discretion of police departments as to whether or not
they can simply add a couple love
I love police officers I mean I know that I
Indu give clinton some praise in the book for I
the community pre policing programs adnan
and and rightfully criticism for for other
aspects that I he expanded under under under his presidency but
how much discretion particularly when it comes all this terrorism funds
is there for the police department's to say hire another cop as opposed to
getting a an armored personnel carrier
what we're talking about a couple them programs here
and the community policing program that started during economist racin
I'm you're crazy in print the program the book but actually it's a fact was
was fairly pernicious I and
you touched on the problem which is that there's no oversight with these grant
how the gift ban want to check leave other federal government
I is up to the individual Chris Carman and so
look at community policing is this idea to capture the space in our communities
and guess what
beacon I and you know that
be apart the communities that they serve and creditors know kinda
occupying force basically and it's a good time and place a
a more effective I better approach to policing
the problem is again a there was no oversight
and so a couple other investigations actually found that
from Greece a computer taking the money for community policing and you think
that sucks watching
I would just for be peri-operative community policing
I in fact I a criminologist up to cracka
the criminologist at the Eastern Kentucky University the conservative
Police Department connector tunnel at least I
sheriffs and police chiefs actually considered swat teams and more active
what seems a part of the community policing strategy I which is not at all
the intent
the gramm or no the Quinn administration on the started it
because the other problems with the oversight I
you talk about the attack Sarah grant and because what we see after September
11 PC the departmental
Department of Homeland Security start contact enemies checks out to police
departments across the country
art by military year again you know somebody's some
the grants are a some of them are
earmarked specifically I for people to hire more cops 30
its report security I but what we are seeing is a lot of these grants are
going specifically could buy
military-type here I armored personnel carriers for example or
no out I more powerful weapons and guns and weapons
prickly agencies and you're probably regret if you go back to the pentagon
program can get away
that well equipment that already existed you know
sitting in a warehouse where I'm thx grant for going to buy
new equipment between I they've given rise to a cottage industry now
that has sprung up artist for basically just
to cash the CHS grand I and produce
this new battle great equipment on C you got this industry now that is wholly
reliant
on the Graham and you know NL
inevitably how they're gonna spoken a lobbying office in DC Inc
lobby to make sure that these programs continue and expand
I and you know it's all gonna syrup heartbeat of itself
I and now you've created what you might call a cleese industrial complex little
little brother the military about doctor complex kinda in the murder
that scary thing about that is you know once that are in place in the end up in
rolling it can be really difficult to
I trolling it is back it so well
i mean i i don't wanna jump to head cuz I wanna talk about what the implications
are for this I mean
immunity you know and i know i don't want to say that
well I mean the question here is is then
could this this move in with him what is problematic
about the the sort of the police setting themselves up
in a a much more adversarial role
but to the community then they should and I think we can see that
I mean it seems to me that we can see that manifested in a couple areas a
minute
you know you know a program like stop and frisk at least how it's been
a implemented in New York would you see that as something that has emanated
out I love the the culture that has
grown up around I A
that is an offshoot of this culture that has grown up around policing
sure yeah and you know I me know
par problem there too did you have these police officers who are from outside the
community coming
into these communities usually no you need the color I
and know basically harassing people nurses in an article today about a guy
who had been stopping
stop on first over 50 time I and
never action and charged with a crime can't you just
look suspicious I so yeah I mean I think that is part of the other going to stop
the presses also it
at heart but gun control program I
so it the it it players I think to
progressive misguided progressive ideas on
on law and order as well as conservative ideas law-and-order I
and I definitely think that that that that are evident you know it it creates
a very
antagonistic relationship between police incident and
I mean you know it's very hard to stop and frisk is this idea that you know
everybody is a potential threat anybody to be carrying a gun there for the
police should be stopping in
searching anyone looks the least bit suspicious that
I you know New Yorker your Bloomberg and Kelly would argue that
maybe York safe a I don't know you know crime has dropped
across the country over the same period including that he's been
didn't you stop and frisk so on the idea that that's behind in their crime drop I
think
you know I'm quite look it up a lot of other other evidence
how much you see I mean we we also have been particularly
in New York put a but I imagine is well across the country
a convergence a love a.m.
have sort of the the the national security state in terms of spying
particularly at the New Yorker Police Department working hand in hand with the
have enough I could call this guy CIA liaison he was sort of
polling to two paychecks as simultaneously
but we know the stories I love the New York Police Department spying on
a Muslim students throughout the Northeast and the
in beyond I'm where you fit that in
to the your your your thesis year
one man you know the government does have a a
national security is a legitimate function on the government
operate ethically neatly very careful love what's going on here i mean
no telling that right at remember right after the September 11 attacks
are the following: February during the Super Bowl %uh the White House
a the opposite National Drug Control Policy
air this commercial the basic that big attempted hi
casual drug use I do I terrorism
I and this was a very I you know
me in the the completely intentional I and
know if you can the government right off the bat was trying to type the drug war
to
the war on terror across because terrorism a good thing the people most
creative at the time
i'ma three senior kinda complacent the two issues
a now ever since their BBC in washington Post book on long series on a kind as to
on you how r are are anti drug interdiction efforts in Afghanistan are
a army in the war on terror victims were worsening
soldiers out there to burn I opium fields while
you know farmers watches to US troops that their
livelihood aflame I in it you know hurting our
relations over there concerning our ability is actually fine terrorist
I'm see the know all across public policy
I'm the I'll the well I just because an essay stuff coming to pick up Elise
yeah we found that we learn that the DEA I was trying to get its hands on all
this and that they did and ordered lunch truck investigations
got to be very careful about the company in a few that and I'm
I have water problems with the the the NYPD spying programs and the
CIA inculcation all that but I
you know you have to do you support that as a and legitimate function government
I it very very quickly become bleed over into a more routine
orkut law enforcement I so did I think
initially wary about what's going on but don't they could also
we should I understand that once government that the circle powers
even if it in the context of limiting its national security
it isn't long before find other expenses as well
and in one of those examples I think I've that that lead to is
the the the response to
the Occupy movements at least in in in New York and certainly other cities
across the country
you've got I am met a
just should have E the the I mean I think people can remember this site
a love sort of these robocop a
cops a you know storming eighty a public park
as it were I am in and I imagine that's also
a part of what is problematic is that again
there if this is bleeding over right i mean it's a mission creep in some
respects
yeah in this is another a separate narrative that go through the book is
buttressed by the way
government response protest and goes back to the Occupy other side and back
by the TTL protest
Seattle in 1999 in the way the city responded to those protests
which was know the city basically came out expecting
computation you know the cops came out in their I
problem copper dark better care however you wanna call whatever you want to call
it
%ah and I interviewed the chief a a police in Seattle a kind on Stamper in
the book
I and you know he got know it was better to be over-prepared and prepare for
computation band
to regret not being prepared I into something is right but
you know a there's a better way to handle that and I
also interviewed Jerry Wilson which she can be seen early seventies
intern occurred a lot of civil unrest country between DC
and did a very different approach a will that you know he was always quick
is uniformed cops on the front line the guys in a traditional college Blues in
fact he would come back a lot on frontline
I and knows that you have the right school had ready and
yet to be repaired he said he would put them on buses and pokémon on side
streets
I his approach weather is lot he was again if you go into a protest expecting
computation
that's what you're going to get i'm ok we show up
dressed like at I both they and the protesters are starting from a point
a you know something bad is about to happen
I and distemper to his credit today
as his response to those protests data was the biggest mistake of his career
I could he said he see now that has become the template but that's how
every city not respond the protest I
he after that a broken heart that he was know he himself was responsible for that
I and knowing the the inherent irony here is
that I you know the the more important the event
I you know the more influential be I decision-makers more consequential
decisions they're going to be making
I the more likely it is that the protesters are going to be
put as far away from you and as possible and that
in a lot pretty much the opposite of what the person I'm a supposed to be all
about you know it's got to be about
I being able to be heard and being able to I have your complaint
I you know heard by the people who are making the decision
we can do it you know this way we respond process
is seems to be incorrect contravention a no evidence person and because
be about wilson's an interesting character because he also
I he also resisted the the the know knock
I am
from raids as well right i mean pride heey
not E go ahead but yes although the party that nixon this is one nixon
through our pet policies that he pushed through a
in 1970 and know this team the interesting thing about tonight great is
that it wasn't something that police chiefs were clamoring for more than a
criminologist were saying we should have I did this with the idea of a
28-year-old
Senate staffer I who was looking for issues that nixon could use
in the sixty eight campaign to basically exploit
suburban wat fears about black
urban crock I so they came up with this idea
well you know we should captured should be able to
no breakdown people's doors without knocking when occur suspected drug crime
them we made it tough on them in and the nixon persist through and
they were to build one apply to federal narcotics officers across the country
the other applied I just DC congress has jurisdiction over around
Washington DC just the drug police in DC and Wilson
a didn't want it he said you know we don't need this week I
its intrusive it it violates no civil rights
a civil liberties and it's just not necessary
you know we can drug policing without are
you know people toward middle the night I'm interesting thing is that
I you know a lot of other states have no not bill
similar to the nixon bill and across the federal agents were using it left and
right across the country
%uh in DC refuse and and crime actually went down
in the sea I while mexico's president while another
and the rest of the country now you know I don't I don't think I
Jerry Martin's refusal to use no not great is the reason why crime in
downtown DC
operate I think it the more broadly his approach to policing which is more
community
oriented approach where he had copped out walking be
he the stroke to recruit police officers from within the city
for that you know that work people who were part of the community they were
policing grew up in those communities
I really seem to you know to have an effect the other extreme thing about the
no not
bills is that the federal bill happened as I said
your federal narcotics officers were written down doors left and right after
school
ask I but there are a few cases where they got the wrong house I
became national news and the New York Times investigation AP did investigation
and they found actually dozens and dozens of these instances where
we federal narc had knock down the wrong door
great how about a warrant your terrorize people there are
a few deft I and really a fascinating thing happened
to the congress held hearings may brought in the victim to these rates
have to cry and actually repeal both laws
at night it happen other law the federal government liable for any
botched you know raid on the run how I
and know their it was the time show that no your gonna
I did nixon drug war in and all it is
I country humanizing year drug offenders that congress will still capable
shame and about not being able to reflecting decide that maybe
this particular party has gone too far I'm
not great within and then comes back in the nineteen eighties
with a vengeance and we are we seeing hundreds and hundreds of these
no not rate on our house and innocent people getting killed and
in congress hasn't given it a second thought and know that
a little blip in it reelected really surprised when I
found in my research I had no idea that happened yeah I mean is this
meet ultimately is this story because we also have I think over that time
as well over the past 30 years the Supreme Court
sort of loosening the restrictions on
I am on the the requirements for
flipper for texting civil liberties particularly in terms of
well in addition I wish to say in terms OVA of police work
I mean so from do we have you know these I think there is a natural tendency i
mean
going back I in another life
I was in a situation where I played a cop
on the streets of New York and I was wearing the uniform for a week on the
streets of New York City
I basically without much oversight
it and I'll tell you when I
it it certainly dramatically changed my attitude I was I found myself my
jaywalking in stopping our cars in Kalin
bike messengers to get off the street i mean I can only imagine
when you I have that IMEI I think back to that time and how
how radically it changed my perspective on
I'm just what was happening around me and interviews that I did with police
officers in the run-up to the
RNC in 2004 in New York City and they were being told that this was gonna be
like Seattle Times 10
and they were gonna be a anarchists in here with and
is a and they were really should have
worked up into a fervor above like this is gonna be a Warn we've got to get into
these trenches
so on one hand we have I think a culture that
is susceptible to this type of thing
I we've had programs that have sort of played into their culture but you've
cited examples of times where
I we seen federal government pulled back on that
d what what is the solution here to this I mean how do we redirect
I am police departments around the country
from being certif ok cause I military
or outfits to going back to
a a a a more integrated sensor up their role
in the community
well I that's the million-dollar question I guess um
you know I think there are number a
a specific policies that we could repeal that would help and
one is you know these giveaway that military equipment
checks to buy more military equipment the incentives to federal grants because
strictly toward drug policing I and your let's
go back to leading crime be crime policy be
decided on a more local level about all these Inc onto an intranet
I'll you know I think what you find is that lease with the devote a lot more
time to solving crimes with
you know actual victim band concert no crimes were
every whatever all the parties concerned like a drug crime for example
I'm let me but let me ask a lot in terms of like the locality I mean you've you
know
we have we it seems to me that we have
I am localities that could go one way or another I mean
you cite Wilson in his policing
as being radically different than a guy like gates let's say
some yeah is it it came what could we also just say
you know one instead of giving you these funds for are buying new gear
we're gonna give you these funds to adding I am cops to your force
and so you can feel the security of having numbers on some level doesn't
actually have to be in terms of firepower
yeah I i mean i think the problem about with with the federal grant so the money
is fungible
and now you can get the car a low-carbon money to hire more cops and then they
can
you know they can take whatever money they were going to use our cops
I and move that to yeah more
aggressive policing I you know I
I do see your point about at night ahead you know I don't think we can
completely leave out the up to local level I think no I i
between a very robust I civil rights division within the party the justice
and I think
I think I think local police initially should be able to dictate no
while economic priority and you know what strategy policing strategies are
going to use
I that said yeah that's practical civil rights Liberty
I think now I think the problem just let me to do that Obama's been a little
better than bush America like
stop it could be a lot better and I think that should be
Leslie priority just bomb making sure that Police Department and
actually and prosecutors that matter are protecting
are observing how people civil rights and civil liberties and
and not abusing them I'm when I mean that
in terms of a specific a policies or you can just
kinda attitude changes I
in general the between a yes please you need to be more precise
and know kinda a kicking ass and taking names asks him to be de-emphasized
I'll get on the book review: look at police recruiting video
video that conducted high schools and colleges the to get new cops
I you know the images aren't typically cops you know we're telling our
helicopters and tackling people and kicking down doors and shooting at
people
and you know that's the very first step in the process your I mean this is
I you are appealing to people who look at those images and think that's what I
want to do every day
I course know that not want cock should be doing everyday
I you know that that the after completing a much more
a that we won every size are much more mundane and secure
you go back to because I school be back between with a high school with who
you know what find a job involving those activities appealing
I you know most accurate decided that one of the last people you want to
become a police officer
%uh no real idea for putting up w talk about the
the power you felt when you're a cop I in New York
I mean I was actually not good at playing a cop but the hague
away when you're playing a character whiny at the venom a more powerful
testament to that mean
if you look at the Stanford Prison Experiment example where
pingback: seventies the professor
no got a random group didn't fun one to be
prison guard military prisoners in ended up having the
spending experiment after just a few days because the guard started using the
prisoners
actually he played the role the warden me down even himself
you know taking a very antagonistic you toward the prisoners new for
completely randomly assigned role argue that the program experience
experiments where is on fears rested minister-elect
electric shocks the people are and no they weren't
actually shocked that they were actors on the other and were no
screaming in agony I am taiwan tears were told to keep giving the shock may
continue to give them
I mean this you know these companies should be taught a police academy
clinically
result does need to be aware a what that kinda power
in duty or psychology and and the way that you view other people
I and I think too often we you know we emphasize
the quite that lease office space we emphasize they are
I you know the dangers of the job but we don't I
we don't teach enough two police officers about what that kinda our can
do to you
emotionally and it's your psychology I let me know appears to be taught at
least on me that I could it be
you know retired I often I
I because few months ago and 12 the guy who teaches
a use-of-force classes the police
agencies across the country and he said what denise brown and
class 10 to 15 years that I was really disturbing that
I lotteries courses not what it is but that he's observer
they don't talk so much I there's very little and this isn't the escalation now
as a Realtor on you know how to talk your way out our talk somebody down
because know a lot of these classes now focus on how to
justify whatever force you after you've used it
%uh basically how to write a police report that no exonerate you for
whatever course you just you
I left really kinda telling I mean that that that we've gone
know that even the training has gone away from
preventing police file and to
finding ways to justify it after the fact I into this is Alton
larger cultural stuff that I think be chained and that's a very
difficult thing to do but natty again it starts with policy and it starts with
a no electing public officials who
understand these things and that you know we're going to
implement policies that not emphasize the right aspect for police work
the in the end in this maybe I mean I think you know this may be where
you serve the the ideological perspectives on which we we approach
this
serve diverge on some level because you know
a.m. I mean I it seems to me
counting on police departments around the
the country on their own are with the hopes that in each of those police
departments that we find in each locality
are going to have this level love
I love me maybe it's too the grandioso worded saying enlightenment
seems to me far more far-fetched
then simply saying on a a federal level
if we can incentivize people to buy more gear by giving them money
and setting up a system with incentives to do this I mean you say that
you know that the that federal funding is fungible but that means that that
on the local level they're making the decision to
to make it that fungible it seems to me there's gotta be
aid mechanism coming out of congress
and a where we can have a ATA
a focal point of saying any broader sense that culturally speaking
we won a different culture of police work in this country
and then incentivizing in providing the funds
to a to gear training towards that to gear to a hiring in expenditures on a
local level
in that manner I mean obviously the you not gonna have the feds run every police
department but
if if the federal government can incentivize
the through the drug war in through anti-terrorism policies
too much sir dove buffing up love these police departments it seems they could
also do the reverse yeah
well in theory they could but I i mean if you look at
a I mean who in congress is going to stand up and say we should give our
police department less money
to fight the war on terror or to fight the war on drugs i mean
no i i put on the book that not at the federal level
and it's been a bipartisan rush to insanity and both parties are
are guilty of trying to outdo one another I can't say whether is
actually some concern in action going on politically it at the state level
pml-n just for state and country to pass case what transparency build
if we make call the police to least agencies I have a SWAT team stayed
issue these reports were very detailed reports on how often they use this
watching what purpose and
whether shots were fired in so for them we're seeing
others a bill Michigan Legislature the campaign after the film
a under are a couple artist the new to other going against a bill that will go
in part an actual
attempt to put the restrictions on the use of the SWAT teams
I'm so I mean I think you know that at the more I read the more local level
people are more
politicians are more accountable to I'll you how people
steel about their police departments think it you know when you book your
Congressman your voting for
I you don't they keep I think most of us know farrakhan ballpark
member congress thinking that that's going to affect how are police
our local police officers be okay for actual
how to prioritize lot I think it's usually
be we consider that a much more local issue certainly congress
clinton did pretty well I really mean from a political standpoint
run for president on their community policing whether or not it actually
I was executed in the way that it was sold to us but I mean from a political
standpoint
I mean I agree obviously a you know one doesn't necessarily have to operate to
the exclusion
I love above the other in you know in but think about anything but the
community policing thing was not
mean the reason why I was popular with
even you know very far left progressive politicians is not
because it was me including my getting it an anecdote that illustrate this
point I
I actually a I just taken the form on capitol hill that was
sponsored by a congressman Bobby Scott shortly after that democrats
to cover congress in as sometime in mid-2010 from the exact year
but forgive my you must feel on please militarization and
I you at the time the bush administration was actually trying to
phase out the COPS program
I'm not you know because they're cared about militarization but just you know
they were
they were trying to say that a lot of programs I and
you know I testified about you know to the so I talked about the
militarization problem during the Q&A I someone asked about the COPS program and
I think we should
no refund it because communicating with a great idea
I and no I said you're right it is a great idea but I pointed out that
because there were no restrictions on how these cops grants for use
but me out the agencies across the country were using starts walking
congressman Scott chairman of the crime subcommittee said
are you telling me that our community policing Grantsburg are being used to
start walking
and I said yesterday said the concert not well-intended all we all had a good
laugh about how ridiculous that was
I'm yeah six months later as Scott
presents his budget proposal to the leadership which makes it into the base
with the house democrats budget
I and a brief under the COPS program
at 100 percent level that it was during the Clinton administration with no
restrictions on how to grant could be used by local police department
so you know it's not as if they didn't know I but you know when it comes right
down to it
I Republican or Democrat every politician bikes because out that press
release saying you know I just secured five hundred thousand dollars in federal
money
heart our local euros in goodwill I and
if you're the one who stands up and says you know
I a week but I refuse to result but there's no way I'm going to let them
spend it on a SWAT team or I'm not gonna let them
use it to buy I'm more high-powered weapons know congressman do that
love the be adulation a yes from
securing the granted nobody wants to look I mean republicans wanna be law and
order party
now the democrats are I you know due to the police union
so there's really no political sign up for either
other to party at a national level the noted click
implementing these reforms are to talk about out they couldn't make onto or
I just lastly when you see the announcement by
a holder yesterday regarding mandatory
the minimum sentencing for for nonviolent drug users I mean
in granted we're not talking about a huge cohort of people
the most I think the the vast majority of people who go to jail
under these offenses are are I'd
doing so under and state lies opposed federal but
is this the type to think that we need to see happen in terms of changing the
culture
that so that maybe we get to the point where a politician see some value in
saying
we're sending this money a back to the district but we're also gonna make sure
its restricted
in in how it can be used
what I think so to accept that we are going to get these grants
then yes we need to put restrictions on other years and
at speculation still mean want to talk about the book is
you can't really talk about whether police shooting like
officer police officers firing the gun the people
have gone up or down because even other stuff federal requirement that every PC
that day there it's just not in force nobody nobody's made the effort to
actually enforce
the requirement I and you know everybody thinks in the country get federal money
in some way or another in there
there's no reason why we can't hey if you're gonna take this money you have to
be more accountable and transparent yep together
let us know how your swatching let us know how many times your
results fire their guns and no honey and bee document had
I'll you know that should be here yeah I agree and I think we probably disagree
on whether these
don't want to be going out at all because the PR yeah I think we should
attacks I restrictions on out to you to make sure that
unit to accept the weekend i used in the right way and that I'm
you know that that they begins going to keep apartment more transparent
accountability
accountable I'm not a good thing are you encouraged by
I am by holder's announcement I mean at least in terms of love
if not for its immediate practical facts but at least in terms of maybe
this assertive 30 some-odd forty-some odd year now
I am a drug war is adding to see some
disintegration I think I'm more encouraged by the symbolism than the
practical effect I mean you know the idea that but the Attorney General can
get up and pray
other than the older said this week I is encouraging
undersecretaries I've talk to say that there's not going to be a
the actual practical effect in terms of you're using the
the a population incarcerated people or
you really reducing the way mandatory minimums are used are changing as to
where the years but
just to the extent that can happen other that turns out to get up and say that no
other immediate
no political backlash I is encouraging and also listen i
even on the right you're seeing a lot of movement toward
your reform in recognizing the problems that mass incarceration
I a group like right on crime which I you know a lot of
through marquee conservative names are finally starting to say
a no better we've gone too far underwritten personally think I'll
me think that discussion is right person change unfortunately
most the people who are making noises at places like that
how to block this where they can do so you know what
I and political without will to political statement but I think you know
there's a lesson
about your listeners who are concerned about the stuff
I would say that that that there has to be I mean politicians are not going to
I most part voluntarily come out for reform in say that
no our police have too much power I
they're only gonna start to to now moves to these changes
yes it becomes a political liability for them
not to %uh say that you know you know political
content all no correctly on marijuana a
you know healthy majority country now supports legalizing marijuana not
such as medically but outward I by know congress I think it's like
I 45 percent I not because there's
you know they're still the sense that there's a lot of political risk in
coming out
to legalize I and there's they don't really see any liability
just keeping quiet about it some people until people start
you know voting on these issues and you know writing
your congressman saying you know why you
you should be using no war terms they're talking about leaving our community
until this they feel like there's actual supply ability: to them
I propping up the status quo in in keeping the way they've been going
I think it can be difficult to persuade any politicians to change them
are these are known for their a
courage political courage for the most part right now I think it's rare but
sadly it's a it's only politicians they can really rain in
their police forces yeah that's where a word whether
response I mean that's what's going on with the changes in common and that's
what have we got here and I
I'm like the book The and it's not an anti couple to condemn
if anything it's an anti-politician book i mean they're really going to cut the
policies that got us here
radley Balko I the book is rising the warrior koppel put a link on now
majority .fm thanks so much for your time today