- I'm getting super creative
on how I do growth and I always have been.
It's just the way my mind works.
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- And you started with the growth hacking, I guess,
in this internet marketing industry;
you growth hack a lot of stuff.
So tell me something about that mindset,
about growth hacking,
and are you still doing something like that?
And if not, why?
- So I still have a very much growth hacking mentality,
even in my personal life, right?
Where when I'm dealing with my daughter,
how can I end up getting her to do what I want,
instead of crying, quicker and easier.
So when I pick her up in the morning,
I come with a toothbrush in my mouth.
because I know if I put a toothbrush in my mouth,
she'll want to brush my teeth,
so she'll take my toothbrush and try brushing my teeth
even after I brush,
because I wake up before she wakes up,
so I'll brush and everything.
But if I come and do that, she'll come up,
I'll be able to pick her up,
I'll be able to read to her,
and go on throughout my day much quicker
than if I didn't do that.
She would cry, ask for her mom, and it's a whole ordeal
that'll take 20, 30 minutes.
So I look for shortcuts
or ways to get what I'm looking for quicker and easier,
and they may not all be conventional.
For example, this year we'll release SEO automation
in Ubersuggest and we'll release email marketing
in Ubersuggest, where you can do all email.
And I'll give you the example of email marketing,
email marketing in Ubersuggest
will be a hundred percent free,
unlimited contacts, unlimited sends.
Whether you send 10 emails a month,
or a million emails a month,
it'll be a hundred percent free.
- Okay. - because email marketing
is cheap now, so it doesn't cost much, but also-
- Is it the same strategy that you used
for Ubersuggest the beginning?
You made it totally free,
and down the line you basically created a tool?
- No, for email kind of, but not really.
What I mean by that is it'll always be free
to send out an unlimited amount of emails.
- Amazing.
- So like I look at it as, to me,
that's a better creative way to grow.
For example, did you know MailChimp sometimes,
for their CPC, pays up to $50 a click on Google?
- No. - And you're getting a click,
it doesn't mean that you get a sign up.
So how many clicks you can get to a sign up?
And a sign up for MailChimp is a free sign up,
and then, eventually, someone can pay, right?
And I'm like, wait, it's just cheaper
if I just give it all away for free.
To me, that's the example of growth hacking.
We're even doing something in Ubersuggest
which will be,
there's some people who want the premium features
that can't afford it, so we're going to do something
where it says you can invite X amount of people
and you can get a free month of Ubersuggest,
but that's been done, right?
That's an example of growth hacking.
- That's Dropbox, just like Dropbox?
- Yes, but I'm going to get even a little bit more creative,
where I'm going to do something where it says
if you invite X amount of people,
you can get a free month or you can keep inviting,
and if you hit a certain number of invites,
I'll give you a SEO site audit,
where my team will do the audit for you,
or we'll write a blog post,
or we'll do manual outreach
and we'll try to build you links, right?
Why can't I actually give them more tangible stuff
that's much more value?
Have a free month of Ubersuggest,
or would you rather have someone
write a good blog post for you?
You would probably take the blog post, right?
because that costs real money.
- Exactly.
- So I'm getting super creative on how I do growth
and I always have been.
It's just the way my mind works.
- So doing these kinds of growth hacking,
do you even consider revenue somewhere,
because this is going to take some resources from you, right?
Like doing all these things for free,
making the Uber, like in the beginning,
Ubersuggest was totally free,
and people were using it,
there were a lot of guys who started using Ubersuggest,
and the same you're going to do for email.
Where the revenue comes into place?
How are you going to figure out that part?
- So with the email, eventually I'll charge for things like
better templates, better marketing automation,
so really advanced features.
Maybe I'll say, hey, double opt-in.
If you want to remove it, you got to pay, right?
So you can make certain features paid features,
but you can keep the core functionality pretty much free.
because if you look at Ubersuggest,
you can still do 90 plus percent of the stuff,
95 plus for free, right?
Like if you think about links, back links,
Moz has a good API.
We give away Moz's API for free,
you don't have to pay.
And it's just like you can end up getting
the exact same domain score, the same back link history,
eventually we'll add in link intersect,
and we'll add all this stuff, again,
majority for free,
because it doesn't cost that much for the data.
Same with emails; it doesn't cost that much for emails.
I ran the numbers, it costs me $20,000
to send out 400 million emails a month.
Moz will just give it away for free.
The cost actually isn't that expensive.
10, 20 years ago, when MailChimp started,
it was more expensive to send out emails.
Now, not so much.
So the cost is continually getting lower,
and if I send out more emails,
my cost even gets less per email.
So why not just give it away for free?
It's cheaper to give it away for free
than it is to acquire users
and pay $20 or $50 a click on ads.
- That's really, really interesting.
That's really interesting.
It's a totally different way
of looking at cost per acquisition, right?
Like acquiring more customers.
- Correct. - Amazing, so, perfect.
Are you also thinking about integrating that with Shopify,
the email service which you you're thinking about?
- Yes, we will. - That's a really big market.
- So we want to do a little bit different things with email,
like why can't someone just buy within the email?
Okay, what I mean by that is you get an email.
Here's a t-shirt for sale.
Why can't I just click, select my size in the email
without going to your website and click a buy button,
and because I'm already a Shopify customer,
or whatever it may be,
I can click on a buy button right away, and it purchases?
Why do I even have to go to a website?
So we're trying to do a lot of creative stuff.
It'll take a while to do all that stuff,
but yes, eventually we'll get into commerce
and all that kind of stuff with emails.
- Are you also thinking about SMS?
Because that's also booming somewhere, right?
- We are.
I can't figure out a way to do SMS for free,
because the costs are just super expensive in SMS.
- Yeah.
- And what's funny is, in countries like India,
where a customer doesn't spend as much
because of currency exchange, right?
Rupee versa dollars. - Right.
- Big difference.
It actually costs more money for me to do an SMS in India
than it does in the United States, right?
- Right, right, right.
- See, economics aren't aligning up yet,
because I would want to give away more for free in India
because the business doesn't have as much money to pay,
because they're not collecting as much money, right?
because they're collecting money in rupees.
- Right.
- But my cost in India, funny enough, for SMS
is more than in the United States,
so it's actually backwards.
The companies will pay more in the United States
for SMS software, and the cost is cheaper.
- Yeah.
- The companies, from what we surveyed,
will pay less in India, but the cost is actually more.
- Yeah, this is like India-
- But Jio's changing things, right?
Jio is trying to make more.
- Jio is changing things, and WhatsApp is actually,
that's the reason WhatsApp is actually very, very actively
trying to monetize that market, because it's huge in India.
WhatsApp is one of the biggest, you know?
There is in India for instant messaging.
- They are, but their platform is not fully developed yet
for a business standpoint to monetize, right?
To create software they're working on it.
- True, true, true.
- They're working on it,
and we really will see more stuff.
- They are working on it.
- Yes.
- Because it's going to be instant communication
with the buyers.
Right away-
- And then all day long we'll juice it, right?
- And just because of Jio,
everyone owns a smartphone right now in India.
Do you know about this?
India has the lowest cost of internet right now
in the world?
In the entire world.
- Because of Jio.
- Just because of Jio.
That's amazing, right?
- Yes, because think about what I'm trying to do
with Ubersuggest, Jio did that to the extreme.
They said, instead of giving away free software,
let me just give away free phone service
and just make it so affordable.
- Yeah, yeah.
They basically changed the whole market.
- And then you have mass adoption.
- Yeah.
- And then he took celebrities,
because he has way more money than me, right?
He's one of the richest people in the world,
so then he took celebrities
and then had the celebrities promote the Jio Phone, right?
Which made it even more popular,
like the Amitabh Bachchan and everyone, right?
They were on the ad campaigns about Jio.
- Exactly, exactly, exactly.
That's amazing.
- because India loves celebrities, right?
Anytime celebrities push something, it's big.
- Because, yeah,
it's like Asian countries are more emotional.
Like we try to connect everything with the emotions,
and the celebrities are the best ways
to basically put emotions in the mind
and try to sell everything.
Like we are totally and totally biased towards
whatever celebrities are doing, and we just follow that.
Like it's crazy out there,
but that's a big, like India is a big market right now.
Like everyone is actually trying to figure out something,
what they can do in India.
Amazon being, like Amazon-
- They're spending so much money.
Billions and billions,
they're spending more than Flipkart on Walmart, right?
- [Interviewer] Exactly.
- And they're spending the money,
I don't think they're making any profit from it.
They're spending the money to control and own the market.
I don't know about control,
but they're spending the money to own the market.