ladies and gentlemen please welcome John
Anderson
well Jordan and Dave thank you so much
for giving us your time John Anderson
net is basically dedicated to something
that is very very dear to me as someone
who is very worried about our country
and where we're going and it's that you
can it cannot get good public policy
without a good public debate and it
seems now we don't have debates anymore
we just have abusive emotional
mudslinging so that's the sort of the
background theme but then we come to
this incredible opportunity today to
engage with these two gentlemen and I
wanted to get the ball rolling by
talking about a number of issues firstly
personal responsibility then I'd like to
move on to freedom what is it because
it's not licensed it's not what so many
people think it is today and how do we
make it work I then want to talk about
courage because we're going to need a
lot of it going forward and you're going
to hear a lot I would see demonstrated
some real courage I think here and what
we're going to talk about in what you're
going to hear what you're going to
witness then a bit about social media
and how we make it all work and then
it's over to you we live in an age when
it seems that there's a crisis of trust
in our culture it seems that we are very
uncertain of our institutions and the
people who make them up and what their
motivations might be and indeed the
research backs that up the Australian
National University has been tracking
Australia's confidence in their
politicians and the political process
now for many decades we are in uncharted
waters record numbers of Australians no
longer have con
in the system record numbers of
Australians now distrust the political
process and the players in it just more
recently we've had the latest of a
series of royal commissions of inquiry
into various institutions this times
banking and the financial services and
we learnt that we couldn't trust bankers
now there are many trustworthy bankers
in cases are any here but plainly people
were deeply concerned by what emerged
and you stop and think about this when
people are in relationships of trust
harmony and progress can be made when it
breaks down harmony and progress are
impaired and people flee for safety if
you don't feel safe with someone else
you look for the rule book and you look
for policing and you'll look for
protection so it's a good thing we've
had the Royal Commission of Inquiry so
we know what's been going on it's a good
thing we've got the rest 78
recommendations new laws everywhere new
surveillance new policing but it's a
tragedy it was necessary in the first
place that people have not been doing
what they've should have been doing
without coercion so now we've got a
great big battle as to how to resolve
these things you see the law based
approach but Jordan you've said
something quite different in the midst
of all of us what you have said is that
the redemption of the world is not
political it happens at the level of the
individual that's not what we hear in
the mirror every night there's a new
scandal it's we need more rules we need
more policing we need more surveillance
we need a different party in power
you're not saying that you're saying it
comes back to the individual the first
question is do you want that I mean do
you want a more a state with more
regulatory power do you want a state
with more surveillance I mean first of
all why would you think that that would
be trustworthy when all the evidence
suggests in the past that as a state
expands its surveillance power it
actually becomes less trustworthy rather
than more and why would you want you
might think well ice
certainly want someone looking into your
affairs but I don't want anybody looking
into mine well good luck with that
because you know to the degree that I
have someone elect someone to look into
your affairs their bloody well going to
be looking into mine as well and that
just doesn't strike me as a particularly
positive development and practically
because I don't believe it'll work I
don't think surveillance states do make
people more honest I think all the
evidence is the opposite and then I
would say from the individual
perspective it's like I believe that the
the fundamental what we got
fundamentally right in the West because
there is a number of things we got
fundamentally right even though we don't
like to admit that anymore is that the
ultimate moral responsibility for the
state relies on you it relies on your
moral integrity and you know you can
it's not that hard to think that through
it's like well first of all you have the
right and the responsibility to vote and
we could say well that's not exactly
given to you by the state it's it's
something that exists in some in some
sense outside and before the state it's
part and parcel of your intrinsic value
okay so that's a decision that we've
made in the West that each person
regardless of their flaws is
characterized by a value an intrinsic
value that's so deep and so profound
that the very regulation of the state
itself rests on their shoulders and
that's really something that's that's
why you have the right to vote and
that's worth thinking about the first
question is well do you think that's a
good idea or not I do you believe that
we are in fact sovereign individuals and
then well let's assume that you believe
that we are because the alternative is
some sort of autocracy right it's some
sort of tyranny it's it's the it's the
parsing off of that sovereignty to a
bureaucracy or to some arbitrary form of
leadership and maybe you can believe in
that and you'd like a strong leader and
fine but you you want to think that
through because if if it's not that then
you well then it's if it's you and you
have to make sure that the ship of state
is sailing properly then the first thing
you might want to ask yourself is what
makes you think you're any more
trustworthy than the people that you're
that you're despising or criticizing I
mean if you are well more power to you
but it isn't self-evident that you are
and my suspicions are that it's not even
self-evident to you that you are because
it's a very rare person that you come
across if you talk to them with any
degree of seriousness you know they're
able to lay out a whole litany of ways
they fall short of their own value their
own values not values that other people
are putting on them certainly that as
well and they can name innumerable ways
that not only are they not doing what
they shouldn't be doing so they're
falling short of the mark in that way
but they're doing all sorts of things
that they definitely shouldn't be doing
and they know it it's like well we're
gonna put that right or not and my sense
is you know I wrote a rule in my book
put your house in perfect order before
you complain about the world before you
criticize the world what's the idea
it's like well you're the sovereign man
if the states if the ship of state is
listing and sinking that's you that's
your problem it's your fault you're not
doing it right you're not educated
enough you're not awake enough you're
not articulated and a target articulate
enough you don't know enough about
history you're not taking on enough
responsibility you're looking for other
people to blame because it's convenient
and and and that's kind of
understandable because it's the
dispersal of responsibilities who wants
all that responsibility but there's a
huge price to be paid for it the the
first price that you pay for it is well
there goes the adventure of your life
it's like you could get yourself
together and be the bedrock of the state
right that'd be hard that call on
everything that you have that would be
your adventure you're gonna pass that
off to someone else and then then what
do you do you've got nothing left in
your life a triviality and
you can't live I don't believe that
people can live ethically trivially
that's why I think the pursuit of the
idea that life is for happiness is wrong
because life is too difficult for that
to be the case our lives are too
profound to characterized by suffering
and malevolence the world is too
characterized by trouble at every level
for happiness to be the proper solution
the solution is something like a heavy
burden of ethical responsibility the
kind that sets the state straight and
then in that you find the purpose of
your life and so not only if you want
the external monitoring and the
surveillance state not only do you
sacrifice your privacy and invite all
that invasive attention and lose your
impulsive freedom you lose everything
that's profound about your life and
someone takes it from you they take your
destiny from you and that's no way to
live that's just that's the tyranny that
we've struggled against in the West
successfully for I would say in one way
or another for for for a number of
thousands of years and with a
substantial amount of success to draw
dive into this we met in LA a couple of
years ago over breakfast Dave you're a
great defender of culture too now when
we met it was very interesting you set
out the reasons in a way for me to think
he's a card-carrying progressive you
know you tell me where you came from and
what do you believe in what you didn't
and then you said and I'm gay married
man and then he went on to say and I
thank God every day I live in Christian
America and I thought that's a surprise
turn in the conversation and we had a
fantastic breakfast talking about it
you're a defender of culture now or of
our cultural roots at a time when the
West seems to be its own worst enemy and
doesn't believe in its cultural roots
can you elaborate yeah of course well
you know first off as you guys I'm sure
know Jordan I just left the Sydney Opera
House a few minutes ago and we've done
about a hundred and twenty some odd
shows
opened for Jordan and it just struck me
in the last two minutes that having to
follow you is much less fun but having
to go before you that's easy I'm usually
just setting them up and you're knocking
them out of the park but ok I'll try
well just quickly on what Jordan said
about the individual because it links
exactly to that you know people ask me
all the time in the QAS and in our meet
and greets what what is going on why is
it that people are following this
psychologist talking about lobsters all
over the country and and actually that
question is what I believe is the answer
there is there has been a complete
obliteration for young people to
understand what being an individual it
is what being a person that owns your
own mind that decides to get out there
and live the life they're supposed to
live that doesn't want to take from
somebody and give to somebody else or
just take for themselves and that has
really been lost and what's been amazing
to me as we've done now 20-some odd
countries is that the same things that
you guys are thinking about in Sydney
are the exact same things that people
are thinking about in Toronto and Los
Angeles and Stockholm and and all over
the country and that's absolutely
fascinating so to your question because
I am an individual that is what led me
here that that's I think what led you to
want to have breakfast with me in Los
Angeles that the difference is the
immutable characteristics that we either
have in common or separate us whether
it's sexuality or gender or skin color
are completely irrelevant if we really
want to be a society that is truly free
that truly respects each other it makes
no difference I mean I I do when I go to
colleges I'll usually just single out
somebody in the crowd and it's like how
sad would it be if I just looked at you
and I was like oh well you're a white
guy you look like you're in your early
20s as if that would give me any
inclination that I would have any
insight into what you think or how you
should think actually is the better
point because you should think whatever
you think and and hopefully be willing
to have that exchange of ideas so I'm
very appreciative that I live in a
Christian country because the simple
fact is while the media will imply that
you know every day there's another story
on how
well Christian white people are or
something like that and by the way I see
that spreading all over the world as
well I mean there's a there's a weird
thing going on with the media where I
thought it was really an American
crumbling of the media but now I see it
all over the place
I live in the freest country in the
history of the world period the United
States in 2019 is the freest place in
the history of the world you can you
know with with the most tiny exceptions
on speech around you know yelling fire
in a crowded theater or a direct threat
of violence you can say whatever you
want and even being here in Australia
where you guys have it pretty good on
speech I can tell people are jealous of
what America has and certainly when we
were in in the UK where they have all
sorts of things where you know this this
YouTube creator count dank EULA had his
dog you know do the do the Nazi salute
and and got in all sorts of trouble I
mean we won't have this forever and that
that's very clear to me and I would just
add this that Douglas Mari who I'm sure
you're familiar with in the UK he's also
gay and I and he's a brilliant thinker
and I didn't even want to ask him
anything about that because it's it's
completely irrelevant in a certain way
but the last question when I had him on
last time I said to him do you think
your sexuality has a little something to
do with your sensitivity about freedom
because you know it might be you first
and he said that he thought his skin was
a little thinner because of that and so
I do think that people that are on the
outside for whatever whatever that is it
doesn't have to be sexuality it could be
obviously a myriad of different issues
I do think you become a little more
sensitive sensitive to it and for that
reason I'm incredibly I'll go a step
further I am blessed that I live in the
United States of America and I can do I
can lit I'm a free man in the freest
country ever and I'm very appreciative
that you can see while we get on yeah I
seriously can anyone push back against
that and yet half a time when you listen
to the elites who have their hands on
the levers of influence today you would
think we lived in cruel and oppressive
cultures think of the four great
revolutions the American War of
Independence and what
out of that think of the French
Revolution think of the Russian
Revolution think of the Maoist
revolution which one has produced a real
understanding of the individual and
secured their freedoms in a greater way
and we're in Australia of course are
unbelievably blessed to use your word
again because we've inherited what's
called a wash minster the best of the
British our house of Congress sorry
House of Representatives based on the
House of Commons senators closely
modelled on yours and it works
unbelievably well but you wouldn't think
it listening to the public commentary
today now let's come to freedom when you
and I talked in Sydney back just before
Easter last year we had a great
conversation than to my enormous delight
I found that we had a friend in common
Alexander Solzhenitsyn there you go
there's a photograph of him no it
doesn't look very happy well there's a
good reason for that he would have been
probably busted up physically and on all
sorts of other ways as well when that
photograph was taken he was a hero in
Russia in the Second World War but after
the war he dared to disagree with the
regime in Moscow which was an
unbelievably evil regime and for the
price the price for disagreeing was that
he ended up in the gulag in a prison
this is a remarkable book he wrote about
his experiences they were said there
this wasn't the only one
it was smuggled out to the west there's
no doubt that he's writing shortened the
life of that evil regime but the bit
that stayed with me in which you
referred to and have many times you
wrote a great essay on it over Christmas
I recommend it to you it was published
in the times and then in the Australian
or you can google it was that this bloke
recorded that one day was lying in his
cell
I'd imagine freezing cold
probably ill incredibly unhappy in these
circumstances
he hears the thumping of a guard down
the rows belting another prisoner up the
screams of the prisoner and then he
writes of that it dawned on me as I
listened to it that the dividing line
between good and evil actually doesn't
lie between captor and captive can you
imagine a prisoner in those
circumstances saying the bloke doing the
beating is captive - he's not free
rather he said the dividing line between
good and evil lies somewhere across
every human heart it's not between man
and woman it's a laughter some of our
people in today's movements it's not
between Catholic and Baptist or man and
woman the dividing line between good and
evil lies somewhere across every human
heart that was very profound for me in
public life and I was telling these
friends on the way out that for example
you know a point that came to me to be
quite real as a young federal member of
the Parliament I was in the outback town
of Walgett and a very very angry young
Aboriginal man came up to me he swore
his head off at me he said you sir
answers you stole this from us you
ruined this you do you know you've an
absolute litany of my crimes and now
you're going to pass back and I remember
thinking stop stop remember that this
guy has the stamp of nobility on him -
it's just I can't see it at the moment
you know and I've got no right to do him
over he's like me he's a mixture of good
and bad but let's tease this out this
incredible writer who eventually was
freed found his way to America the
Americans and the West refused to listen
to his warnings he was there like a kind
of prophet saying look out you're losing
your freedoms what did he mean how do
you find freedom when it's not physical
you can't move you're in fear of your
life but in some other way he found
freedom what's it mean can we unpack
that because I think it's important
well one of the things that Solzhenitsyn
did and this is something I think we're
thinking about
I mean I've thought about it for decades
because it's such a remarkable story I
think he tells it in the second volume
of The Gulag Archipelago because it's a
three volume book the full book and it's
all worth reading especially the second
volume and especially the second half
and in that he details his
transformation I would say his
psychological or spiritual
transformation know he was on the
Russian front which was not a pleasant
place to be because Stalin had signed a
pact with Hitler and Hitler broke it and
the Russians were completely unprepared
and so to be on the Russian front at the
beginning of World War two was a very
bad place to be and he wrote letters to
a competitor to his complaining about
the lack of preparation and that's what
got him thrown in the camps now it's
interesting to note that Stalin threw
all of the Soviet prisoners of war into
camps so if you were a Soviet soldier
and you would go on to the West and
fought and you were captured and put in
a say a German prisoner of war camp and
treated terribly because Stalin didn't
sign the agreement it was from
Switzerland Geneva Geneva Accords on the
treatment of prisoners of war and the
Russians were treated so badly that the
Allies used to feed them you know and
it's not like they were not hungry and
so you would end up in a powa amp there
and then when you were done with that
when you went home to Russia for your
hero's welcome you were thrown into the
goo leg because Stalin believed that the
mere fact that you'd been exposed to the
West now made you a class enemy so that
was the sort of place the Soviet Union
was now Seoul jannat to spend a lot of
time in the gulag and he observed that
there were people there who he admired
now the camps were mostly run by the
prisoners so because most prisoners many
prisoners became trustees and then would
move up the administrative ladder and
that's pretty interesting and it really
dark way right because it's like a hell
that's run by the Devils and they could
escape at any moment if they just
realized that they were the ones running
it but they didn't and so and and so
that that made the situation even more
brutal than it might have been because
he noticed too that prisoners who became
guards were often more brutal than the
civilian guards maybe to justify to
themselves what they had done who knows
anyways Solzhenitsyn at one point
noticed that there were people in the
camps whose comportment he truly admired
who seemed incorruptible who wouldn't
deceive or lie or take the easy way out
regardless of what it was that they were
being threatened with and they wouldn't
sign the confessions that everybody had
to sign guilty or not guilty
they refused to play along and some of
them certainly died for that but many
people died in the gulags so that was
hardly an anomaly but he said that many
of them many of the people who ran the
camps were terrified by these people and
that also that many of them were
religious believers which was quite
interesting and so what he learned was
that even under terrible circumstances
there were ways of being more or less
noble and I suppose it would be under
terrible circumstances where that sort
of thing would be put to the test and
and it really made him think about his
own role in his own demise
you know like he had Hitler to blame
right because well there was the Second
World War and he had Stalin to blame and
I mean if you need people to blame for
your misery
those are credible people to blame you
know especially both of them at the same
time and yet he started to consider you
know what did I do in my own life that
increase the probability that I ended up
here you know as a citizen for example
who was responsible for the way that the
country operated because you know like
in East Germany one third of the people
in East Germany were informers and
everybody in the Soviet system lied
about everything to everyone all the
time which is of course what you would
do
one in three people were informers
because that would be like two people in
your family and so the whole system was
set up and maintained because everyone
lied you think well if I stop lying I'm
done for it's like yeah fair enough man
but if you keep lying and so does
everyone else
you're also done for and so is everyone
else so that doesn't seem to be much of
an option and Solzhenitsyn noted that
there were people even under these
extreme circumstances that would tell
the truth and he decided that he would
go over his life with a fine-tooth comb
he had nothing but time to think about
every time he had acted in some manner
in his life that transgressed against
his own conscience
right that where he did something he
knew to be wrong and then to see if he
could figure out how to set it right
then now obviously he couldn't
necessarily apologize to the people
against who he had transgressed right
sometimes you have to pay for something
you did in a currency other than that
which you took and his determination was
to chronicle his experiences in his
truthful manner as possible which was
basically impossible it wasn't like he
had paper and pencil and and time to
write and privacy had his notebooks ever
being discovered well he would have been
in serious trouble and they would have
been destroyed in fact when he got out
he had two copies of the full manuscript
each out to a different typist secretly
the KGB got a hold of one destroyed it
and the typist committed suicide you
know so he basically memorized the book
and it's 2,400 pages long of 8-point
type like it's it's a it's one
remarkable work it's one long scream of
truthful outrage you know and that came
out of his decision to set himself right
and then it was as John said it was
smuggled into the West where it had a
walloping impact it completely
demolished at least for a long while the
moral credibility of communism
completely from like 1972 on if you knew
about the existence of the Gulag
Archipelago
you didn't get to
say anything good about communism and
that lasted for a long time it even
convinced French intellectuals that
there was something wrong with communism
and there's no doubt that it was one of
the historical events that caused the
Soviet Union to collapse and that was a
good thing and you know when it
collapsed relatively peacefully all
things considered no thermonuclear war
Yugoslavia was no picnic and you know
but for the demise of one of the most
evil empires that ever existed it was
pretty damn smooth and certainly the
world's being in way better shape
especially Africa since the Soviet Union
has disappeared because the African
economies are booming like mad now and
it's partly because they aren't doing
things that are insanely foolish under
the guide guidance of you know communist
direction and so Solzhenitsyn decided
under these conditions of absolute
powerless and privation right to put
himself together and to say what he had
to say and that was enough to knock over
the Soviet Union it wasn't it wasn't all
that knocked it over but it wasn't
nothing it sold 35 million copies
you know it's arguably the most
influential non-fiction book of the 20th
century and it's unbelievably powerful
you think well what power do you have if
you're willing to tell the truth it's
not easy to tell the truth it's it's
complicated you have to take yourself
into account right over the long run you
have to take your family into account
you have to take your society into
account you have to think it through you
have to think strategically and then you
have to find your words and that's hard
to find your words because you tend to
use other people's words or ideological
words or words that mask or hide it's
not easy to find your own words but if
you find your own words and there are
truthful words there isn't anything that
can stop them you think well do you
believe that oh let's go back to the
sovereign idea are you sovereign
citizens or not well if you are well why
is that well it's because you have a
certain faculty a certain power well
what do you have you have the power of
your convictions in your truth and your
ability to communicate and that's what's
supposed to set the state straight okay
so you have that it's like well then
maybe it's truth that you're pursuing
and seeking if you have any sense and
what truth well truth is the best
reflection you can manage of reality
imperfect because you're imperfect but
it's the best you've got it's like what
what's gonna be better for you than to
have reality on your side and what's
gonna stand in your way if you have
reality on your side lies I don't think
so
that isn't how it works and I don't
think anyone believes that because the
other thing I've noted and discussed
with people frequently is if you have
someone that you love a child let's say
and you're trying to raise a child in a
decent manner you don't tell them look
kid this is how the world runs
everything is corrupt beyond belief
including you and your parents and and
society and nature for that matter it's
just complete bloody hell everywhere and
the only possible way that you can make
it through life effectively is to learn
to lie as brilliantly and undisguised
ibly as possible
no one does that well why not if you
believed in falsehood if you believed
that that was the way forward then that
would be the right thing to teach but
you don't you teach your children to
tell the truth even if it's painful and
the reason for that is that you actually
believe in the power of the truth I'll
finish that with one thing there's it's
a very interesting scene in Revelations
there's a very strange document appended
to the end of the primary book in the
Western Canon right and it's a
hallucinogenic nightmare revelation and
in it Christ comes back to earth and
he's not the merciful Savior of the
Gospels he's the judge and there's a
reason for that
a psychological reason and the reason is
is that if you have an ideal and
whatever Christ is metaphysically or
psychologically he's an ideal if you
have an ideal and ideal is a judge
because the ideal judges you right okay
so he comes back as a judge he has a
sword in his mouth and he judges that
saved in the and the Damned and it's not
pretty
but here's something interesting it's so
fascinating he saves his
worse contempt and and uses contemptuous
language says I will spit you out of my
mouth it really means I will vomit you
out of my mouth not if you were a bad
person not if you were a good person not
if you were a bad person but if you sat
on the bloody fence right if you were
neither warm nor cold you wanted to play
it both ways
well I'll lie when it's in my favor and
I'll tell the truth when it's expedient
for me it's like you're you're in the
category of the damned and I think
that's absolutely right because that's
real cowardice if you believed in
falsehood it's like good get on with it
man you could be a criminal and lay your
life out and see how that works and if
you believe in truth well then perhaps
you put yourself on the line for the
truth but you don't play the the two
sides against the middle because there's
there's nothing in that that isn't
self-serving at the cost of your own
well-being and at the cost of everyone
else's so you have to think about you
have to think about your relationship
with the truth you know there isn't
anything more important than you can do
than that and because you're your um
your I've seen people in major
corporations that were corrupt and
failing spend three years doing nothing
but telling the truth often at their own
peril fix the companies and it's such a
relief to the people that they were
talking to because they'd go talk to
them that company is run by people who
are not doing what they should be doing
and their questioning is like okay well
what's really going on here well no one
wants to talk because they're afraid but
the person who's doing the questioning
actually wants to know and people start
opening up and he gathers information
it's like oh I see here's the real
problems here it's like we've got all
sorts of problems here this is why the
company is in trouble but it's okay if
we know the problems well then we can
fix them and we'll go ahead and fix them
and then the company will work and
everybody who's terrified and won't say
anything it isn't really working hard
anymore because they're so dispirited
and believing that the projects are
corrupt and that the leadership isn't
doing what it's supposed to they start
having a bit of hope it's like really
you mean you're actually willing to
admit that that is the problem and
you're gonna give me a problem that is a
real problem that I could actually work
on and actually solve and benefit from
that and the whole company switches
around and and if that works it's not
naive to believe that and I'll say one
more thing about trust that's very much
worth knowing so this is what you learn
if you're a clinician most people who
trust are naive and naive is not a
virtue it's a fault it's partly a fault
because if you're naive and you run into
someone who's malevolent including you
they might do you incalculable damage so
that you will never recover
so that's not a good thing you don't
want to be naive if you're not naive
that means you've been burned once or
twice or three or four times and you
know once you've been burned in that
manner well then it's hard to trust
because you think well why would I trust
you or me for that matter knowing full
well that I can be betrayed and so then
you're cynical and you think that's an
improvement over being naive
you know it's you're more mature cynical
than you are naive even if it's
premature and it's often premature in
young people it's like okay so how do
you get out of that conundrum well this
is a crucial thing to know you trust
people because you're courageous that's
why it's the same reason that you're
grateful it's a mark of courage it's a
mark of commitment it's like you and I
we're gonna make an agreement and you're
full of snakes and so am i and there's
lots of ways this can go sideways but
we're going to put together an agreement
we're gonna articulate it out we're
gonna try to find something that is of
mutual benefit to both of us we're gonna
put our hands out and shake and we're
gonna try to stick to that and we're
gonna risk trusting each other right
it's a risk and that's the risk upon
which the state is based really like I
believe and I think the evidence for
this is very strong by the way I don't
think that there is any other natural
resource than trust and for trust you
need courage not naivety and you go to
overcome your cynicism so that you trust
and then you ask yourself to if you
don't trust your institutions it's like
hey there your institutions why don't
you go out and do something about them
you think well I can't it's like that's
not true that is that is absolutely not
true that that's there's there's nothing
vaguely accurate about that in a society
like this almost all of our democratic
institutions are crying out for people
to participate they can't find enough
people to do it and if you participate
and you and and you do it diligently and
you have your say and you're careful and
trustworthy and you and you and you and
you and you speak your mind you can have
way more effect than you think so if
you're cynical about the institutions
it's like look in the mirror because
those institutions the corruption of
those institutions is a direct
reflection of your inability to get your
act together and that's what it means to
be a sovereign part of the Western
community so it's not someone else so
this issue of trust now I would have
thought that after what he'd been
through and you've outlined it not a
lone body means but some of these people
who have warned us of the need to be
responsible and a heed history salt
solution is a classic example what has
happened you made the point that for a
very long time we understood how
dangerous that sort of drift towards
totalitarianism is it seems to have
washed out of the system now it seems as
though we don't teach history we don't
respect it we don't understand that it
can teach us valuable lessons and what
worries me about that is the old saying
if you don't understand history you may
very well repeat it why do we walk away
from people we can trust warning us of
the consequences well it was an
interesting reason for that that sort of
brings the search in its in story into
2019
which is that he was truly oppressed
this was a life of actual oppression
right now we have people that are
around everyone in this room has this in
their pocket and if you have this in
your pocket and off I hope yeah
hopefully it turned off but if you have
this thing in your pocket and you think
you're oppressed you're very confused we
we live in a time with such absurd
freedoms in the West that are so beyond
imagination of what people could only
dream of two generations ago even one
generation ago especially with this that
people now have a perceived oppression
instead of a real oppression so one of
the things that I find when I go to when
I go to college campuses is that you
know these kids will protest and they'll
scream and that you know that everyone's
alright and everyone's neo-nazi and the
rest of this and I I always find alright
well how do you how do you break through
to somebody like that how do you
actually when they have you know you've
talked about this when they have that
look in their eye truly a possessed look
and and they're you know it's this this
postmodern monster has become sort of a
secular religion and I think that's also
one of the reasons why what Jordan is
doing is resonating because they've
they've removed religion from the
equation and now they have no meaning
and they put it all into this really
competing set of ideas where we call the
the oppression Olympics where they're
constantly competing for oppression
because they believe that victimhood is
virtue and victimhood of course is not
virtue what's virtuous is getting your
life in order and going out and doing
something so I'm always looking for a
little trick to get through to these
kids and it's really hard because when
they have that sort of glossed over
zombie look it's it's tough and I found
one trick that actually kind of works if
you can get it to them in the most
simple personal way and this
particularly works in the United States
and I have no doubt that it would work
here in Australia as well I'll say to
them anyone in this room does anyone in
this room have it worse than their
grandparents now I've done this I don't
know 100 times probably nobody has ever
raised their hand
nobody ever if you live in the United
States you basically short I mean the
only outsider case would be if your
grandparents were oil barons or
something like that and then they lost
all the money in which case in which
case the leftist would actually love
that too because it would show that well
it would show that that accumulated
wealth doesn't stay beyond generation so
they're all about that right so but if
you can do something like that I mean if
you say
I mean everyone in this room can do it
like can everyone picture their
grandparents do you a bit better or
worse I mean does anyone in here have it
worse than their grandparents and that
shows you that it's a perceived
depression not a real oppression that
that the thing that they're fighting
this patriarchal postmodern capitalistic
thing that they're fighting I mean they
can't define it so it's hard to define
it for them that it actually has bent
toward justice always always and one
when you get with you can plant that
seed in them I think it's a little bit
of something but it's very hard to break
them out of that but I think the key
here is understanding that it's a
perceived oppression if you live in a
free society in the West in 2019 you're
not oppressed you you may be you may be
don't happen as well as your neighbor
does and maybe you came for more and
they came from less or maybe you're sick
and they're not or a series of other
things but you've got a chance and
that's all you're supposed to have in
life and I think getting that through to
them as opposed to oh the system is
horrible and I have to now destroy the
system as if they could magically
reconstitute a system that really would
just be in effect throwing away
thousands of years of human history that
they're so wise there's so wise at 24
years old is they're shouting down
speakers that they could they could
build up what nobody before them could
and that that's the danger there so I
think getting them to to think about
their own lives where they come from I
think is a pretty effective way of
getting through to people well we could
also say like look there's a claim that
the West is an oppressive patriarchy and
so that's actually true the the problem
with the claim is that it's not just an
oppressive patriarchy and there's a big
difference between something being
completely something and something being
partly something because one of the
things you might point out is that you
can look at human history anywhere and
what you see is a complete bloody
nightmare right it's it's it's death and
struggle and privation and war and
horror everywhere with some progress you
know some
ability of us to pull ourselves out of
the mire you know and the West is the
same is there's plenty of catastrophe in
our past and of all sorts and and I
think it's it's necessary to know that
but then it's necessary to separate the
wheat from the chaff you know one of the
things I see with readers who are
unsophisticated and intellectually
arrogant is they'll read someone great
maybe they'll read Nietzsche for example
and they'll find the odd thing that
Nietzsche said that grates against their
current moral sensibilities whether they
do that in context or out and then
they'll throw away the whole book it's
like you don't throw away the whole book
it was Nietzsche you don't throw away
the book he's like one in a billion you
read it carefully and you think well
okay no to that but yes to this and you
do the same thing with darts Kiev ski
and you do the same thing with Tolstoy
and you do the same thing with the great
writers of the past that have been
passed down to us you you read
intelligently you separate the wheat
from the chaff right and you gain wisdom
that way
well you do the same when you look at
your own history it's like well of
course it's a bloody nightmare what do
you expect it's like what's your point
what are good we're gonna burn it down
and then we're gonna have something
better as a consequence well not so
easily not so quickly maybe we read our
history carefully and we think okay well
what did we get right well what did we
get right well the sovereignty of the
individual that's pretty good the fact
that you have right to property that's
pretty good
you could argue about the limits on that
but you know you don't want someone just
taking your purse you know it's it's
it's helpful that there are things that
you can earn and own you know the
dignity of the individual that's another
one the innocence before the law god
that's that's a miracle that we ever
came up with that idea I can't believe
that that idea exists because in most
cultures it's like well you might be
guilty okay you're dead because well
that's easier you might be guilty
you know why go through all the trouble
there's plenty of people where you came
from it's like the trouble of presuming
your innocence it's easy innocent it's
even hard for you to do that for
yourself and and and the idea that that
each person has an intrinsic worth
regardless of their while externalities
let's say that's another idea that's a
complete miracle it's like what we're
doing what I'm gonna do we're gonna
throw all that away with the statement
that we live in an oppressive patriarchy
and then we're gonna be left with
nothing and and and what what good is
that well how about we look at our
history and we take responsibility for
it we think okay well here's some things
that need to be fixed
there's plenty of them right there's
plenty of them for each of us to fix and
we'll go fix them and maybe then we can
atone for the bloodiness of our history
and for our so-called unearned privilege
you know some of which all of us have
and that would be good that would be
part of the adventure of your life too
and that's that's a far more sensible
and wise approach to the diagnosis of
what's wrong with the West then well
it's an oppressive patriarchy and it
should be overthrown or whatever that
you know current low resolution and
resentful ideology happens to be and and
there's something to be said for a bit
of humility as well it's like really you
really think that you're capable of
making large-scale social
transformations and getting it right do
you you really think that you're 25
you're 30 you're 40 I don't care you
know what makes you think you're smart
enough to pull off something like that
it's very very difficult very very very
difficult to take a system that works
not too badly and to do anything to it
that doesn't make it worse
much less to radically reconstitute it
and make it better that's really hard so
you know if you're upset about your
culture well maybe you could think of
some small ways that are local that you
could go out and improve it well I think
you should start with yourself because
well then you're only harming yourself
and you're not a bad person to practice
on and then you could extend that to
your fat well at least you suffer for
the consequences of your own experiment
that way rather than having someone else
do it and then maybe you can work on
bringing a little more harmony into your
family and maybe you can get a job and
see if you're any good at that and then
if you manage those three things half
ways respectably well then you could
dare to put a toehold out into the
broader community and think maybe I have
an idea here that we could tentatively
attempt that might make some small
things slightly better that we could
measure carefully and assess and that
would be your contribution and and maybe
you get real good at that you know so by
the time you're 50 or 60 and you have a
solid life behind you you're actually
capable of generating large-scale
improvements carefully you know as you
were saying that I was thinking I mean
this is exactly what Alexandria Acacio
Cortez is I mean this is a failed this
is a bartender with a 430 credit score
which is pretty terrible but you all
she's ever done in her life has been a
bartender now that's fine I've been a
bartender at times but the her only
accomplishment is becoming a
congresswoman with I think around 15,000
votes by saying the exact thing that the
gummy dia wants you to say all the time
right
the idea that she could write this green
New Deal and that somehow she is the one
that can now of course she didn't really
write it you're you know we're not we
don't know who really wrote it but the
idea that she could present this as if
she has the ideas that could rejigger
the entire United States economy and how
we deal with energy and transportation
and everything and we're not going to
have planes and we're gonna pay people
unwilling to work although then she
deleted that part and put that you know
it's like it's it's the lack of humility
there that's actually staggering that
she thinks no one before her might have
tried to move some of these things on
the margins a little bit but she but the
crazy or the or that moving things on
the margins isn't enough
well they don't believe it's enough but
the really crazy part of this is that
pretty much I think the five or six
Democratic candidates that we have now
have all basically signed on board this
thing yeah this thing which you say I
think you could probably argue that it's
unconstitutional on on the grounds of
its just taking more for the government
but it defies everything we know from
history about how economics works well
she's admitting you can't no olives yeah
she says well tax the billionaires and
then she also
tell you tells you that the billionaires
are the blight on society so it's like
well which one is it
because you need the billionaires to pay
for it even though it won't pay for it
and if you don't want billionaires well
now we can't pay for it so what are we
doing give me give me one right as a
strategist longest-serving Prime
Minister is a man called Bob Menzies and
he was a man of incredibly powerful
intellect and very very deep learning
and he wrote fascinating me that
democracy is not a machine it's a spirit
in which the peculiar Christian
conception that no matter what your
station in life is each of us has a
spark of the divine and every soul is of
equal value before heaven why do I
mention that partly because I think it's
a very relevant point personally but
it's because in the mocking and the
ridiculing of that respect for our faith
out of the door we've knocked out one of
the pillars of democracy we've knocked
out the idea that whether I agree with
you or not doesn't matter I have to
respect you because they're a higher
authority places as much value on you as
he does on me now it seems that the
problem is that if you dare disagree
with me I don't have a reference frame
for good and bad anymore or for
respecting you therefore I have to
insist I'm right so I've got over my
life and you dare to challenge me
because you want to be got over yours
well that's to say you're an evil person
or you're a racer story or something
terrible we lack a framework for
respecting one another and it seems a
massive problem for us well it's the
problem with the collectivist viewpoint
because if if your defining
characteristic is that you're a member
of a collective then you live or die by
the propriety of the collective the the
antidote to that is that strange
metaphysical claim which is that well
which is fundamentally that we each have
a spark of the Divine in us you think
well it's easy to be cynical about that
but you
shouldn't be because you act like it's
true and that's worth noticing it's like
if you have friends or family members
and you don't treat them like they have
profound intrinsic value then they're
not happy with you right you can't you
can't have a loving relationship without
that you can't have a relationship of
reciprocity without that you can't have
a relationship of respect without that
none of it and they also want you to
treat them like they're in some sense
masters of their own destiny which is
also interesting right because if you
ever say a 21 year old child and they're
upset with you they say well I'm 21
years old I'm I'm able to make my own
decisions and you say and they want you
to agree with that and you want to agree
with it because you hope that there are
ready to make their own decisions and
you think well maybe they haven't
matured to that point so what are you
saying
well you're saying that they are gifted
with the ability to take the
responsibility to shape the reality
around them and they insist upon that
they insist upon you recognizing that in
them as a hallmark of respect and love
and you know you might be irritated
because they're not acting responsibly
enough to deserve that but it's still
what you hope for and want it's so like
well so what is it we're the sovereign
cornerstone of the state each of us
we're gonna dispute that well we know
the cost of that okay well do we have
that spark of divinity well what do we
struggle with day to day we struggle
with the potential that's in front of us
and transforming that into the reality
that could be that's as close to a
divine faculty as anything I can think
of it's completely mysterious that we
can wrestle with the fabric of becoming
and turn it into the actuality of being
and that we seem to do that as a
consequence of our ethical choices right
you make bad choices you think they're
bad bad things happen right and you
think they're bad and so it's you took
the potential that was there in front of
you and you made something bad of it you
can do that and you can also do what's
good and we know that of each other and
that's part
the reason that were granted let's say
the rate and the responsibility of being
the cornerstone of the state and so that
the idea that there is that divinity in
us
I think that's associated with our
consciousness whatever that is because
consciousness is a mystery it seems to
give reality to being right what's being
without consciousness there's no one
there to perceive anything there's no
one there to shape anything so is there
anything there
well our consciousness itself seems to
be what participates in in the reality
of being and and the the transformation
of potential into into actuality for
better or for worse so there's an
ethical domain to it too
it's like there's no reason for us to be
questioning these fundis fundamental
assumption unless we think we have a
better theory what is that well it's
your race it's it's your power structure
it's like that's what you want you want
to be judged on by collective standards
it doesn't matter what you did it's in
in this forward I wrote for this ocean
it's invoke you know the read the people
who ran the magazine read terror that's
a hell of a magazine read terror they
said well look if you're getting rid of
the birds you Ozzy you know don't just
be start stopping with the people who
own businesses you want to get rid of
their children too because they're
infected with the same damn evil spirit
and just to be on the safe side how
about you take out the grandchildren to
six year old 10 year old doesn't matter
everyone goes you know and what happened
in the Soviet Union
everyone judged on their collective
identity right that's how you're going
to be judged I'll find something about
your collective identity that's not so
positive right some manner in which
regardless of how oppressed you are
you're also an oppressor
you know for you it might be your male
well that would do it you know for you
it might be that you're middle class I
can find some dimension of your multiple
collective identities on which you're an
oppressor and that's good enough to do
you in if you take the collectivist
route the alternative to that is no no
no we have that spark of divinity it's
associated with a deep deep
responsibility and it's
the ability that goes along with that
and we play that out all the time we
play it out every time we play fair
games with one another we have we have
decent honest relationships with one
another we have business arrangements
that are honest and work and we can
cooperate for long periods of time we
take care of our children properly we
take care of our old people properly
it's all predicated on the same thing
you have intrinsic value and even if you
do something terrible let's say and I
still have the the conviction that you
have value then it's incumbent on me to
say well you did something terrible but
you aren't necessarily something
terrible and it might be possible for
you to shed that and to atone and to
rejoin those who good and that's
something to and it's built deeply into
our political and economic and justice
systems and it's it's no time to be
abandoning this you know especially when
you look around the world you see as
it's spreading and it's spreading quite
rapidly everywhere it's spreading things
are getting way better
so enough crisis of confidence in the
West like we've got our house to put in
order there's no doubt about that but I
see no reason why we can't do it unless
we lose faith in ourselves and and
there's reason for that like life is
brutal there's reason to lose faith but
not in the final analysis it's it's a
mark of it's a mark of malevolence and
cowardice to lose faith so the problem
with that though just very briefly is
that the people that are that are
promoting these ideas they actually
believe that the experiment of freedom
which is all that it is they believe it
is bad they believe that America is bad
that the freedoms that you've won here
are bad and what's interesting is I've
seen such a massive look I was a lefty
my entire life you're well and yeah and
I should be judged accordingly but I
mean look what I've see what I see now
is look I could sit up here and give you
my my lefty cred right so I'm gay
married I'm gradually pro-choice
although I'm really struggling with that
one lately because the left is now
especially in America gun soap and as on
the Emporio issue really has gone on
completely crazy I mean they're
literally quite literally talking about
post birth abortions I mean it's it's
really nuts I'm I'm against the death
penalty I'm for reforming the prison
systems I'm for strong public education
I mean I give you a litany of lefty
ideas right but I can't get invited
anywhere by the left or a democratic
group or anywhere by any of these people
but you know who invites me the
Conservatives and I go up there and I
tell them all the reasons I disagree
with them and the libertarians I mean I
like the libertarians they're mostly
stoned but like you know you know I'm
also pro pot but but why is it that
almost everyone right now I would say if
you're conservative if you're
libertarian if you're so if you're a
classical liberal or sort of a
disaffected lefty if you're an
independent and a couple other things if
you're if you're any of those there's a
great group of people right now that are
willing to agree to disagree and get to
exactly what your question was which is
how do you sit down with people without
impugning them the only people were
talking about at the moment that have
any institutional power because you know
everyone every time you talk about this
someone says well but there it's for
white nationalists here and that and
it's like they have no power no one
cares about them the media promotes them
to make it seem like they're massive and
they're not no one but even the right
does a pretty decent job of saying that
these people are no good so all we're
really fighting is this hysteric what
was that study in the Atlantic where
it's only something like 8% yeah and the
only 13% of them think it's gone too far
so something like 8 percent of the of
people believe really in this postmodern
progressive view of the world and a lot
of them are shaky within that belief so
it seems like a big monster because the
media is always pushing it on us because
they're loud but I I'm extremely
enthused that we've gone all over the
world and met good people who were I
think need to be a little braver perhaps
but but are here and are willing to
wonder that bravery in a moment of it
that what you've just said reminds me of
two remarkable men in history GK
Chesterton and George Bernard Shaw they
disagreed on just about everything you
could think of but they loved each
other's company now isn't that
incredible they couldn't wait to be
together to have another good argument
and a good feed together
that's what we need the genius of
Western harmony surely is lying in our
ability to respect one another even over
our deepest differences and one day yeah
Chesterton was huge he was six foot four
and very very heavy George Bernard Shaw
was in great shape like you two fellas
and and GK Chesterton looked at George
Bernard Shaw slim as a rake and he said
by gee George you look as though there
must be a famine in England and George
Furniture shot back as quickly as you
could imagine there's a great big
gargantia in man and you look like
you're the cause of it but you just
mentioned courage and I want to get to
some of the terrific questions that
people have put up before I do that
courage is something you've both
displayed in spadefuls and it's
incredibly important we live in a
culture now where I think there's a lot
of fear when I was lost with you we're a
Chatswood and there's a thousand people
in that auditorium a lot of me young men
and I looked around I thought these are
terrific young Australians they're
pretty concerned about whether or their
masculinity might be toxic and they're
pretty fearful about speaking out
because you know we had once upon a time
we used to burn people to stake anyway
and then we went for the guillotine then
we went for the hangman's noose now we
kill people in social media and we do
people get kneecapped every day and
worse I think we owe you a great debt
both of you actually because you've
dared to break the ceiling and Dave you
actually asked Jordan about this in
Norway this is the beauty of modern even
I've caught up a bit you know I heard
your conversation you said did you ask
Jordan did you expect when you started
on this journey to end up like this and
you asked him what it's like to break
through that you know how do you feel
about it when you're attacked and you
are very open and very honest and and
you said it's very tough when a
journalist does you're over but you
might like to repeat that
question two Jordan yeah well quickly on
the bravery thing my partner hates when
I say this but I don't consider myself
brave I'm doing what I think is right
that is it that really is it I wake up
every morning and I feel that I have a I
have something to do that's relevant and
important and being on this tour with
Jordan has been life-altering not only
for all the people that show there but I
don't I don't view it as bravery I
couldn't not do it I guess is the best
way to say it I couldn't ask God I just
gotta make the point there I think
you're probably being very tough on
yourself I think the reality is that
courage is not so much not knowing fear
it's overcoming it isn't it and there
must have been times when you wanted to
sort of say gee I don't want to be under
this attack well I guess I saw enough
when I when I started waking up to some
of what was going on on the left and I
had seen the tactics over and over and
how they destroyed good people I suppose
that as that went on and as I woke up
and and got out of it I just became numb
to that and I just wouldn't I just
wouldn't live like that I would think
but the question that I asked you in
Norway in effect was you didn't set out
for this when when c16 came around you
know you were doing all sorts of other
things you had a practice you were
teaching all of these other things and
you yet you've survived these it's not
even the attacks you've survived a road
that you didn't plan on being on and the
bravery that you've shown along the way
is why people keep coming back they keep
there rooting for us more as you often
say it's like these hit pieces come out
and then in a weird way and now I see it
with me they've moved on from you by the
way they're working on me now but good
yeah yeah I'm happy I'm happy to help
but in a weird way it wasn't that you
reveled in it but you made a point of
saying look every time they do it I'm
still here
and I think I really took my while to
understand that because I always want
you know I wanted to defend my friends
but I also wanted to defend myself and
now it's like all right keep coming I'm
still here we must be doing something
right because I don't spend all my day
attacking other people I'll gladly
attack ideas but I don't attack people I
mean I don't think we've done anything
up here where we attacked a singular
person right and that's that's a huge
difference so the question really was
you inadvertently you know
I'm not a big fan of quarters okay fine
fair enough yeah exactly so every now
and again though but I think I talked
about her ideas in the public eye talked
about her and her credit score but you
know not her as a as a person but right
and she is in the public sphere and it's
also impossible to never talk about
people so it's you can't be that lofty
all the time but you can try to be a
little bit but that basically you
inadvertently ended up in this position
where now by virtue of showing bravery
well you sold out the Sydney Opera House
in five minutes
quit easily it's a matter I think it's a
matter of being afraid of the right
thing that's the issue it's like I
decided a long time ago partly from
reading Solzhenitsyn that I was going to
try to be very careful with my words and
I was only going to say things that I
thought well to begin with were lies
let's say I was going to try to
formulate my thoughts truthfully and the
reason I decided that was because I
thought that the opposite was hellishly
dangerous and I really I really I really
believe that I truly believe that and so
I'm if I say things and I think they're
true and they get me in trouble then I
think well that's not as much trouble as
I would have got into if I would have
said something that wasn't true like it
might be more trouble right now who
knows right because you and you don't
know how these things are gonna turn out
and I had this interview most of you
know about it with Kathy Newman from
channel 4 right and that was a pretty
strange experience so what you're saying
is it was a great interview yeah exactly
exactly exactly and you know she was
pretty professional when we went to the
studio like someone like that is
professional kind of hard surface and
glossy and and media presentable you
know the TV turns you into that and she
was perfectly polite in a professional
way until the camera went on and then
you know and then she went after me and
and then the whole interview went went
the way it went and I thought I I had
like 20 interviews that
and and so I walked away from that and I
thought oh god they're gonna take seven
minutes of that and you know broadcast
it and make me look like a complete
monster and that'll be the end of that
and that is exactly what they did
except they also posted the entire thing
on YouTube not knowing at all that it
was a train wreck
they have no idea wasn't like they
thought oh well this is a train wreck we
better put it on YouTube it wasn't that
at all they thought it was a perfectly
fine interview so then it went on
YouTube and so well so like my mood
changed a lot it was first of all well
this interview went catastrophically and
then it was well they're only gonna use
seven minutes of it that's gonna be a
drag but I'll probably get over it and
then they put it online and then there
was just an incredible reaction and then
five ten newspapers came out to play the
victim card for poor Kathy which was now
all the online trolls were after her and
I thought that really really struck me I
thought she's one of the most powerful
people in the UK you know one of the
thousand most powerful let's say or the
500 most powerful she's no bloody victim
and she's play paid plenty well for what
she does Jordan by the way don't forget
that that night that this all happened
she was she did a video in her car
reading the troll the comments by the
trolls because at that moment she didn't
realize she should play the victim card
yet yeah she was not reveling it right
and it was until she realized that yeah
yeah yeah and so then her her employee
said well we had to call in the police
to investigate was that unbelievably
crooked thing to say it's like anybody
can call in the damn police to
investigate anything it's like well what
constitutes a credible threat well there
are ways of assessing credible threats
you know they have to be direct and
detailed that's that's how you assess
suicidality for example if you tell me
that you have a plan you know when
you're gonna do it you know where you
have a gun you've thought it through
it's like that's a credible threat
sometimes I wish I wasn't here that's
not a credible threat and you see the
same sort of thing online
well then 10 newspapers played the
dim card that poor Cathy was being
trolled by well at that point by like a
million trolls who knew there were that
many trolls but apparently they were and
then I thought well god the whole
thing's gonna go sideways again because
I'm gonna come out of this as the
villain who called forth you know the
alright Armada to take down poor
innocent Kathy Newman and so it looked
like it was going to shift that way for
about four days and then well that
didn't work there was a couple of other
interviews that started to push back
that narrative and and then it switched
back to my side but look I'm making a
point with this is when I do an
interview like this interview um I don't
I follow this rule in my book rule which
is it let's say I think it's eight it's
seven do do what is meaningful not what
is expedient okay so I come to an event
like this and I have an opportunity to
say things and I don't come in here and
think okay here's a bunch of things I
want to convince you up you know it's I
I don't care if you're convinced it's
not like I don't care about you you know
in in the sense that you care for people
and hope the best for them but I don't
care if you're convinced either so what
I'm here for what I'm here for is to
hear the questions and try to figure out
what I think about them and then to say
that and then to see what happens like
who the hell knows what's gonna happen
but there's here's an in if if the world
is properly constituted through truth
then faith is the willingness to have
faith in truth and so then you say what
you believe to be true and then some
things happen and sometimes they're not
so good which is why people often lie
you know you tell the truth you get in
trouble for it every kid knows that it's
like well why'd you lie because I
thought I'd get in trouble well
obviously it's like well that's not a
good long-term strategy it's like so you
say what you believe to be the truth and
then you have the faith that no matter
what happens if you've said what you
believe to be
whatever happens is the best thing that
could have happened and I believe that I
think that's how the world's constituted
and so it's not bravery exactly and I
would say it's more like faith it's like
I'm going to say what I think I'm gonna
try to do that as carefully as I
possibly can and I'm going to detach
myself from the outcome because
sometimes though it comes terrible I'm
at McMaster University or Queens and
there's like a bloody mob of zombies
pounding on the window you know it's a
little slice of hell you think this
doesn't seem to be a very good idea but
you know the tide turns two or three
times in the next three weeks and
something comes out of it and so if
you're going to have faith in truth it
can't just be well did I get what I want
in the next second that's not that's not
faith it's like no I'm gonna it's an it
this is the other thing too that you got
to understand I think is that without
truth you don't have the adventure of
your life you see because if you tell
the truth that means you're revealing
your being that's what you're doing when
you're telling the truth and when you
when you reveal your being then you're
you're living in the world you're there
you're present right your your your your
that's being there let's say that's you
that's your destiny that's your journey
that's your adventure
that's what's gonna justify your life
the adventure it's not gonna be easy but
man if you hide from your truth well
then you hide from yourself and then
you're not even there and then who the
hell are you what are you the puppet
you're the puppet of some coward you're
the puppet of some dictator or some
second-rate philosopher some idiotic
idea or a bully you were afraid of in
grade six god only knows but it's not
you living your life and then you lose
your life and you lose your soul too so
that's what I'm afraid of
and so you know journalists well they
try to take me down it's like yeah well
that's annoying and it usually takes me
three days to recover but compared to
not having my life and
and and and not saying what I have to
say that's that's nothing it's it's
nothing it's this minor inconvenience
and and then generally if you can if you
can just withstand it you know two weeks
you get mobbed you guys might all need
to know this you're gonna get mobbed on
social media okay so what do you do
unless you did something wrong don't
apologize
that's the first thing cuz then no one
can come to your defense so don't
apologize maybe you even double down
carefully carefully not vengefully right
carefully you say no that's what I meant
and if you don't like it too bad and you
get mobbed then you apologize a
different mob comes after you that's not
helpful and no one can defend you if you
can hold out for two weeks you'll win
now it's a pretty brutal two weeks cuz
you know if you're a reasonable person
and a hundred angry neighbors show up at
your door with pitchforks you might be
thinking there's something wrong with
you you know like you think that unless
you're psychopathic and you think well
maybe I made a mistake and it's easy to
waver and to and to back down and maybe
you're also afraid but you know if you
scoured your conscience and you're
careful and you've said what you had to
say then leave it lie and if and they'll
throw the people who are playing this
game will throw everything they can at
you for two weeks and if it doesn't
stick you're done and then the next time
they try it it doesn't work as well as
it did the first time and by the 50th
time they try it like as far as I can
tell carefully the people who have
enmity for me are out of ammunition
they're done I read hit pieces now and I
think oh you just copied the hit piece
from two months ago it's like I'm
perfectly habituated to that they're out
of ammunition and maybe you know like
someone creative could still come up
with some more ammunition maybe that
will happen at the QA but
it's not bravery man it's faith in the
in the redeeming power of truth and
that's different I think that's
incredibly interesting and encouraging
let's come through a couple of questions
yep I'll just preface them by saying
there's been a we actually did a bit of
research on this and one of the things
that people say is they love hearing
your stories and they love hearing you
being open and they love it when you
connect personally with them and
somebody wanted to connect with you and
Tammy Tammy is here with you and they're
I think very conscious of the incredible
timetable that you're setting so as
Alastair there you wanted to ask about
how this works for you it's so great
having opportunity for both you in
person in a moment of uncharacteristic
courage close to two years ago I got
married again
a woman who on any objective measure
completely outranks me congratulations
thank you now she's very high on
assertiveness and I'm very high on
conscientiousness which you will fully
understand and so we contend we can tend
a lot and it's good and we're going
somewhere good and I'm very proud for
what it's worth I'm aware and I imagine
what your life is like and I'm talking
to you Jordan but I don't to exclude you
either and I imagine your life being one
of constant exhaustion exhilaration and
probably a fair bit of Terror as well
and the word contending is one that you
actually used a few days ago on a
different platform in a different City
you're talking to young people and you
challenged them to marry a mate with
whom they would contend and I think of
Tammy and I think of you and we don't
hear a great deal of Tammy but you guys
are I'm sure working really hard you're
contending you're confronting all this
stuff and you're processing it and I'm
sure your marriage is strengthening I
trust it is and I'd love some insight on
that if you if you can speak to what
you're learning about marriage in this
season of your life well the first thing
we're doing is that Tammy is traveling
with me so that's very helpful and she's
paying attention you know so and we talk
a lot about what is going on but also a
lot about our family because there's
complicated things going on in our
we like there are in most families and
we do our best to communicate you know
when she says what she thinks and I say
what I think and we don't always think
the same thing you know but we do our
best to listen we do our best to assume
that just because the other person has a
different opinion doesn't mean that
they're wrong
even though it would be lovely if they
were and then we try to come up with a
negotiated solution that's mutually
acceptable you know and and we discuss
strategy as well I mean for example when
we started this tour which was more than
a year ago we thought you know there's a
lot of competing things that you could
think about a tour especially when we
had no idea how long it would be like
what was this was this a vacation we
were going to you know spectacular
cities all over the world was it time
for us to spend together like what was
it what were we doing and and we spent
two hours thinking it's like no this is
work we have a remarkable opportunity
here and and and we're going to do the
work we're going to hit as many cities
as we can and so what does that mean it
means we get the hell up in the morning
we make sure we're packed our suitcases
aren't too full we don't carry anything
that goes underneath the plane we make
sure that I don't get hungry because
then I can't perform properly we make
sure that I'm at the theater at the
right point in time and we make sure
that our eye is focused on the fact that
it's a great privilege and it's very
unlikely that we can do this and so we
thought okay that's the deal and then we
thought well and then we can take an
hour or two here and there if we're
fortunate to see some of the city and to
take a break and to do that when we can
and you know we've negotiated other
details about exactly how intense the
scheduling was going to be but it's a
constant negotiation and it is a
contentious negotiation which is good
because these things are complicated you
know and to think something complicated
through you need a good argument on this
side and you need a good argument on
this side and then you go to have a derp
and see if you can come out with an even
better argument as a consequence and so
seemed to work now there's other
advantages it turns out that Tammy is
very suited I'm sorry I'm speaking from
for her but she doesn't have a
microphone and actually prefers to stay
in the background to some degree for
various reasons
she's very suited to a life like this
she's quite stable emotionally so she
she doesn't suffer from a lot of anxiety
she likes to travel
she likes meeting new people she likes
the adventure and she's supporting what
I'm doing and so that's working and
thank God for that and then she also
keeps an eye on what I'm doing and lets
me know when it's going well and when
she thinks it needs improvement and and
and she helps me figure out where I'm
going next because for the last two
years my schedule has been so busy that
I don't know what I'm doing next usually
maybe the next day and so her job
because we've also parceled out jobs is
to make sure that I get wherever I'm
going next on time and ready and so far
that's brought I would say incalculable
benefits fundamentally and and because
we agreed on it we had our little
Constitution in place we were able to
handle the stress because I think we've
been in a hundred and it's damn-near 150
cities in 350 days and so it's very
heavy traveling schedule but Andy the
other thing too is I trust her she tells
me the truth it isn't necessarily what I
want to hear well you can tell that's
the truth man what you don't necessarily
want to hear but so she's a very good
counselor and that's turned out to be
exceptionally helpful so yeah and I'm
like their son who refuses to leave yeah
I like it mom yeah
you know I think we ought to give Tammy
a round of applause Dave I think one for
you comes from Monica Wilkie it's about
dealing with difference thank you John
Dave I wanted to ask is it possible to
come to a resolution with someone who
has different values to you so for
example if I have free speech is my
highest value and I'm talking to someone
who believes that diversity and equality
is a higher value and therefore free
speech should be quelled in order to
achieve this is it possible to reconcile
these differences I think it is the best
example that I can give you and I'm sure
some of you have seen this I've had a
couple interviews and debates with ben
shapiro now ben is an Orthodox Jew he
does not believe that gay people should
be married well he believes that being
gay is a sin is the loose word for it
right now Ben my studio is in my home I
lived with my partner in my home
obviously Ben and I were friends to it
to a certain point you know you mean
like you've got like your best friend in
life who knows you the way your husband
or wife or partner knows you and then
and then you have sort of other tiers of
friends Ben will never as long as we
have this disconnect there's you know he
last time I had him on when we discussed
this he said that you know it caught
fire on the internet he said he wouldn't
bake me a a gay wedding cake right or
even come to an anniversary party
because it would be celebrating
something that he doesn't believe in and
I remember when we were having the
discussion I thought all right well
here's a really interesting moment I can
now berate him and I can demand that he
acquiesce and and put aside whatever his
beliefs are so that he will believe what
I want him to believe even if I think it
is the right thing I mean I I think I'm
a good person I'm doing what I'm just
doing my life as I see fit right Ben
sees the world differently so can we
ever truly
through that I would say yes because
what we agreed to for what we were
agreeing to disagree on what we agreed
to agree on was that it's not the role
of the government to decide who can get
married now he's less thrilled with that
than I am because I think that's a
perfectly fine position to take heed he
you know this you see this a lot with
conservatives now where they when you
ask them about gay marriage they'll take
the libertarian position they weren't
taking at five years ago but they
suddenly now that they realize it's the
law of the land in the United States and
it's just the easy way out it's like
well you know I don't really care about
gay marriage it's anyone can get into
any contract that they want to it's the
easy way out
I don't mind letting them slide on that
because we're equal we made it so it's
okay now so I don't know that you can
ever well let's put it this way I think
there are issues that you will have
existential profound differences with
people that you will not be able to get
over but that doesn't mean you have to
cut them out of your life and as I said
to Ben last time we talked about this I
hope that you know we'll remain friends
to whatever degree our friendship is for
the next let's say 50 years and I'm a
little older than him but when I'm you
know 92 and he's 37 or whatever it's re
but he's 87 math was not my thing but
when I'm 92 and he's 87 that may be the
long game would have worked here and
he'll look back and go you know Dave you
you probably were right I suspect I will
get him on this one so I would say just
generally try to be try to be as
tolerant as the other people say they
are they're not really that good at it
they just talk about it a lot but if you
actually try to do that and realize that
the world is not designed to bow to you
and that you can show people you're a
little bit better I just am a firm
believer that that is what will
ultimately get there but no you can't
get everyone right there and it's for
you to judge what relationships you want
to be in thank you I think to bring it
home and a question I think's very
important than probably troubling or
goes to the heart of something that's
troubling a lot of people now Rochelle
on the men in the me to era and the
I'm at that point but Rochelle whiz
Rochelle hey right here I just want to
be clear I've never had a me-too
incident with the woman first of all
thank you very much for being here and
helping us to wake up I really
appreciate it
so my question is as a redeemed
progressive what is the key to
empowering men in the me to H while
maintaining healthy boundaries and
strong behavioral expectations well as
their what do you redeem to progress it
as I said well no one's born guilty no
one's born guilty if you haven't raped
anybody and you haven't accosted anybody
and you haven't you know done anything
untoward then you have nothing to be
guilty about I mean this is the
consistent theme that we've talked about
here about why you should judge people
as individual and not as a collective
but they've created a situation now
where people are now being born with
original sin oh you're a white
heterosexual usually Christian male you
are the worst thing that exists and that
not I mean it's the essence of bigotry
it's your prejudging right so that's
prejudice you're looking at someone and
you're prejudging them and you think
that you know everything that they're
not only about but capable of so I would
say the further we can get away from
that how do you how do you negotiate
those relationships well if you've done
something bad it's on you I mean Jordan
addressed this already it's on you to
figure out how to make penance for that
I suppose but if you haven't done
anything and most people haven't that's
why this thing this idea believe all
women that's well that looks like saying
believe all men believe all midgets
believe all I mean it just doesn't not
engines not midgets now you're gonna get
us in trouble
yeah for sure see you just walked into
me yeah you did it to yourself this time
but it may I mean really called little
people little people believe all little
people but but really I mean if you
could just take the reverse they say
believe all women well now just do the
other way or believe all men does that
sound right you of course you shouldn't
believe all men and you shouldn't
believe all women and by the way every
time that this happens with one of these
people saying believe all women then the
accusation gets turned on them like our
governor Gavin Newsom in California or
when it happened
cory booker or a series of these guys
and then suddenly they go whoa wait for
evidence when it was Kavanaugh no
believe all women so it's it's just a
ridiculous untenable way of holding a
position and if you're not guilty of
something I mean that the fact that this
is happening to young people in the West
especially an especially young white men
that they're walking around feeling like
they've done something when they've done
nothing what a what a recipe for a
disaster and the type of totalitarian
society that we've been talking about up
here it's also reflective of a technical
problem I would say we've had relatively
reliable birth control since 1960 okay
that's not very long and we
underestimate the unbelievable
technological triumph of birth control
it's it's the hydrogen bomb it's the
transistor like it's a major-league
transformation in human interaction
women are now free from involuntary
reproduction that's never been the case
in the entire history of the planet okay
we don't know exactly what to do about
that okay so the first idea in the 60s
was hell let's party
and you know you could see why it's like
what the rules for not engaging in
promiscuous sexual intercourse seemed to
have vanished so we had a couple of
decades of experimentation it's like
well how'd that go little hard on the
family I would say that's not so good
for kids AIDS
that wasn't a plus could have killed us
all and it mutated particularly to take
advantage of promiscuous sex because
viruses are very tricky things so it
turns out that sex is a little bit more
complicated
we thought well it actually turns out
that it's a lot more complicated than we
think okay and now it's for 50 60 years
later and we're trying to sort this out
it's like well when is it okay to have
sex exactly and when is it not okay to
have sex and what does it mean that it's
okay and what is consent mean and the
answer to that is well we never used to
have to think these things through
because the rule was don't have sex
until you get married
that was the rule now that isn't the
rule okay so what's the rule well we're
not having a conversation about the rule
we're waiting til someone does something
that seems like it might be untoward and
then mobbing them and trying to extract
the rule out that way and it's not a
very effective way of doing it you know
you want to decrease campus rape that's
easy
get real alcohol no one has that
conversation it's like I did my PhD work
on alcohol fifty percent of the people
who are murdered are drunk and fifty
percent of the people who kill them are
drunk and almost all the date rape
situations are consequences of excess
intoxication but yet there's a party
culture on campuses and anything goes
and you also have this strange thing
especially on the radical left which is
which is unbelievably paradoxical where
absolutely every form of sexual
expression imaginable is 100%
permissible because sex is fine but it's
so dangerous that while you're dancing
with someone at a Princeton mixer you
have to ask them two or three times if
it's okay for you to continue and and
that's that's actually the case by the
way I'm not making that up
it's like well both of those things
can't be true now what's happening I
think on the me to end of things and the
affirmative consent end of things is the
old sexual taboos are reasserting
themselves the idea that we can extract
sex out from emotional intimacy and
especially emotional intimacy I would
say psychological intimacy maybe even
from
long-term relationship is I don't
believe it's a tenable idea I don't
think we can do it and a lot of what
we're seeing is the backlash against
that it's like well I feel used you know
because one of the things that's
happening on the really radical end of
the anti sexual abuse movement is the
idea that well if you have intercourse
with someone and then you regret it the
next day that's evidence that it wasn't
consensual well it is in the sense
evidence that it wasn't consensual
because it's evidence that you didn't
bloody well think it through right it
was good for last night but it's not
good for today it's not very wise the
question is well what constitutes
consent and we need to have a very
serious conversation about that like
under what circumstances is it
acceptable to give consent but we're not
mature enough to have that conversation
we want both ways we want to be able to
do whatever we want whatever with what
with whoever we want whenever we want
with no consequences and we want there
never to be any trouble about consent
it's like well no that's not going to
happen
I don't think that sex works very well
outside of committed relationships I
don't think there's any evidence that it
does there's a strong proclivity across
cultures for for the enforcement social
enforcement of long term monogamy and
there's reasons for that and I think you
deviate from that at your peril so now
if you if you want to deviate from that
there's all sorts of reasons to do it
and I can understand why people are
interested in adventure and all of that
but you know my sense also as a
clinician is you know you only really
get to try out about five people in your
life you have to make a decision pretty
damn quick
you know like between 20 and 30 there's
a lot of things to get straight and
long-term mate is usually one of them
and most of the time people should be
more careful with their sexual behavior
when they're young especially when
they're drunk than they are and I think
it I just think it's so interesting that
all of the taboo reconstruction is
coming from the radical left it's not
what you'd expect at all you'd think
it'd be the damn right-wing Christians
complaining about you know sexual
immorality it's like no it's the radical
lefties you know you you have to have
sign consent before making any physical
move and then that's so what really who
thought that up that's the stupidest
thing I've ever heard you know how
awkward that would be you know you're
supposed to be able to do a little bit
of nonverbal reading right I mean that's
part of romance you don't see it you
ever see a movie where the two people
who are dating exchanged consent notes
like that doesn't happen so it's an
unrealistic solution but but I think the
real solution is that despite the fact
that we have reliable birth control
we're going to have to relearn what the
acceptable rules of propriety are with
regards to sexual relationships one of
the things I often tell my young clients
is don't do anything physically with
anyone that you wouldn't talk to them
about because if you're too damn
embarrassed to talk about it well maybe
it's a little premature in the
relationship to actually do it and then
there's harm in it
you know there's emotional harm in it
throw on both parties there's the
cheapening of both parties so well so
it's gonna take us a long time to sort
this out but hopefully we can do it in a
serious manner and and it won't be
merely a matter of mobbing those who
seem to have made an error so well
Jordan and Dave you've given us
unbelievably generously of your insights
of your ideas of your experience of your
wisdom and you've done it with immense
warmth and humanity I can't thank you
enough and I've think all of these good
Australians wouldn't would agree with me
oh yeah penis that's about daddy
yeah