>>> LET'S BRING IN CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND FORMER TRUMP
WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN,
JOHN AVALON AND NORM IEISEN WIT US AS WELL.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT NOW THAT DOJ IS LOOKING SPECIFICALLY AND
ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP'S CONDUCT?
>> I THINK IT'S A SIGNIFICANT DEVELOPMENT AND I THINK MARC
SHORT, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT PENCE'S CHIEF OF STAFF AND GREG
JACOB ACTUALLY SITTING DOWN WITH THE GRAND JURY AND TESTIFYING IS
A HUGELY SIGNIFICANT STEP. I'VE SAID THIS BEFORE, BUT MARC
SHORT IS BASICALLY PENCE'S EYES AND EARS.
PENCE IS A STUDIED PRACTICED POLITICIAN WHO DOES THINGS LIKE
HAVE THEIR CHIEF COUNSEL AND CHIEF OF STAFF WITH THEM IN
VIRTUALLY ALL MEETINGS. MARC SHORT HAD TREMENDOUS
VISIBILITY INTO EVERY STEP OF THIS PRESSURE CAMPAIGN LEADING
UP TO JANUARY 6th AND WOULD BE ABLE TO SPEAK TO THAT.
I THINK THAT -- AND THEN YOU PAIR THAT WITH WHAT THE ATTORNEY
GENERAL SAID AND WE COULD BE MOVING -- THIS IS THE MOST
CONFIDENT I'VE FELT AND I'M NOT THE LAWYER AT THE TABLE -- THAT
WE ARE MOVING FORWARD A POTENTIAL INDICTMENT OF THE
FORMER PRESIDENT. >> AND WE WILL GET TO THE
LAWYER. WHILE WE HAVE YOU, HAS THE DOJ
TALKED TO YOU? >> THEY HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO ME.
I AM AWARE OF OTHER WHITE HOUSE OFFICIALS WHO HAVE BEEN REACHED
OUT TO BY DOJ AND ARE PLANNING TO COOPERATE.
>> OH, REALLY? >> YES.
>> CAN YOU TELL ME MORE ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THAT WAS MY
FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS. MARC SHORT, GREG JACOB, WE DON'T
KNOW A SINGLE OTHER PERSON. >> I DON'T WANT TO GET AHEAD OF
THEIR ANNOUNCEMENTS BUT I THINK YOU COULD PIECE IT TOGETHER
BASED ON WHO HAS TESTIFIED BEFORE THE JANUARY 6th
COMMITTEE. AGAIN, THESE ARE NOT -- THESE
ARE RELATED BUT SEPARATE TRACK INVESTIGATIONS AND I THINK DOJ
IS KEEPING AN EYE ON WHO IS COMING BEFORE JANUARY 6th AND
WHO MAY HAVE HELPFUL INFORMATION.
>> BUT YOU HAVE KNOWLEDGE THAT DOJ IS REACHING OUT TO SOME OF
THE PEOPLE THAT WE HAVE SEEN WHO APPEARED AS PART OF THE JANUARY
6th COMMITTEE PRESENTATION? >> YES, THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING.
>> SO WHEN YOU HEAR DEMOCRATS FRUSTRATED THAT DOJ HASN'T DONE
ENOUGH, HASN'T BEEN FAST ENOUGH, DO YOU SHARE THAT CONCERN OR --
KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW, DO YOU THINK THAT ACTUALLY THEY'RE
FARTHER AHEAD? >> I THINK THAT THEY'RE
PROBABLY -- I THINK THAT THEY'RE MAYBE ON A BIT OF A DIFFERENT
TRACK. I THINK THERE ARE PLACES THAT
THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE WAS PROBABLY MOVING FASTER AND HAD
MORE INFORMATION BUT I THINK IT'S A BIT OF A MYTH THAT DOJ
ISN'T FAR ALONG IN THIS INVESTIGATION AND ISN'T DOING A
WIDE REACHING AND METHODICAL INVESTIGATION.
THAT SAID AS SOMEBODY WHO WORKED IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND IS
EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS ABOUT DOJ SEEMING PARTISAN, I THINK IT'S
INCREDIBLY CRITICAL THAT THEY MOVE QUICKLY BEFORE THE FORMER
PRESIDENT IS AN ANNOUNCED CANDIDATE.
JUST SEEING HOW THE POLITICAL AND MEDIA TEA LEAVES ARE GOING
TO FALL, IF HE IS AN ANNOUNCED CANDIDATE I THINK IT'S MUCH
HARDER TO PURSUE SOMETHING. >> I DIDN'T MEAN --
>> SHE TOLD US -- >> HANG ON ONE SECOND.
I WANT TO GO BACK. AGAIN, I DID NOT KNOW -- THAT'S
NEW TO ME -- THAT DOJ IS REACHING OUT TO OTHER PEOPLE,
INCLUDING JANUARY 6th WITNESSES SO THAT IS A BIT OF NEW NEWS.
IF WE CAN GO BACK, NORM, TO THE NEWS THAT WE THOUGHT WE WERE
GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT THIS MORNING WHICH IS ASKING
QUESTIONS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP OF THESE WITNESSES.
WHAT DOES THAT SIGNIFY IN TERMS OF WHERE THIS INVESTIGATION IS
AND POTENTIAL JEOPARDY FOR TRUMP AND OTHERS?
>> JOHN, I THINK IT SIGNIFIES A DEEPENING JEOPARDY.
WE HAVE TALKED TOGETHER ON "NEW DAY" FOR WELL OVER A YEAR NOW
ABOUT THE PROSPECT THAT DOJ WAS GOING TO MOVE BECAUSE IF YOU
JUST LOOK AT WHAT'S PUBLIC RECORD, THE OVERWHELMING
EVIDENCE OF MISCONDUCT BY THE FORMER PRESIDENT AND THOSE
AROUND HIM, THE CLARITY OF THESE LAWS, THE FINDING BY A FEDERAL
JUDGE IN CALIFORNIA THAT THERE WERE LIKELY CRIMES GOING INTO
THE JANUARY 6th HEARINGS, CONSPIRACY TO DEFRAUD THE UNITED
STATES AND OBSTRUCTION OF AN OFFICIAL PROCEEDING IN CONGRESS.
GREG JACOB AND MARC SHORT TESTIMONY FITS INTO THAT MOSAIC
PERFECTLY. BY THEMSELVES IT WOULD BE HARDER
TO PLOT THE TRAJECTORY, BUT WHEN YOU CONNECT ALL THE DOTS IT
REALLY POINTS TO LIABILITY. THAT IS NOT A GUARANTEE OF
CHARGES OR CONVICTION. AND YOU HAVE TO PUT IT TOGETHER
WITH SOMETHING ELSE WE'VE DISCUSSED A LOT, THE GEORGIA
INVESTIGATION WHERE THERE IS AN EVEN FASTER ACCELERATION.
SO YOU SEE A PINCER'S MOVEMENT ON DONALD TRUMP AND PERHAPS THIS
WILL BE THE OCCASION IN WHICH HE CANNOT DODGE CRIMINAL LIABILITY.
>> YEAH, LOOK, I MEAN, PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY -- WE DO WANT TO PUMP
THE BRAKES BEFORE MAKING ANY ASSUMPTIONS BUT PEOPLE POINT OUT
THAT AN INDICTMENT OF AN EX-PRESIDENT IS UNPRECEDENTED,
SO IS WHAT HE IS CREDIBLY ACCUSED OF WHICH IS INTERFERING,
TRYING TO OVERTURN AN ELECTION. I THINK FOLKS WHO HAVE HAD AN
INTEREST IN THE OUTCOME OF AN INDICTED PRESIDENT WHICH ISN'T
GOOD FOR THE COUNTRY I THINK HAVE BEEN FRUSTRATED BUT HAVE
NOT APPRECIATED THE FACT THAT THE DOJ CAN AND SHOULD BE
OPERATING AT ITS OWN PACE BENEATH THE SURFACE OF THINGS.
THERE ARE FOLKS -- LET'S JUST MAKE THE POINT, GOSH, IF TRUMP
DECLARES WILL THAT DERAIL THIS INVESTIGATION?
WE HAVE SEEN THAT ATTEMPT TO PLAY THE REFS BEFORE AND I THINK
THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT THE DOJ CANNOT ALLOW.
THIS NEEDS TO BE WITHOUT FEAR OR FAVOR AND THAT MEANS NOT HAVING
YOUR CALCULUS ADJUSTED BY POLITICAL ANNOUNCEMENTS.
>> MERRICK GARLAND IS CLEAR HE'S NOT GOING TO DO THAT.
DONALD TRUMP MIGHT MESS WITH THAT A LITTLE BIT IF HE'S
LOOKING AT THESE HEADLINES TODAY, THIS MIGHT CHANGE HIS
CALCULUS ON GETTING IN SOONER RATHER THAN LATER.
>> IT MIGHT, MUCH TO I THINK THE DISMAY OF REPUBLICANS WHO
DESPERATELY WANT HIM TO STAY OUT OF THE RACE.
>> KEVIN McCARTHY. >> KEVIN McCARTHY IN PARTICULAR
WHO SAYS -- HE HAS SPOKEN TO DONALD TRUMP ABOUT THIS.
AGAIN, I THINK THE KEY POINT IS WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF MISTAKES
MADE IN OUR -- WHEN PEOPLE POLITICALLY GET IN THE HEADS OF
PEOPLE IN POSITIONS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT.
THAT CAN'T HAPPEN. >> THE FLIP SIDE, JOHN, ON
WHETHER IT'S GOOD OR BAD FOR THE COUNTRY, I THINK IT IS GOOD FOR
THE COUNTRY AFTER THESE VERY DIFFICULT TRUMP YEARS FOR THE
RULE OF LAW AND FOR NORMALCY IN AMERICA TO HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY.
>> AND IT'S GOOD FOR THE WORLD. THE WORLD IS WATCHING US.
IS THERE A PERSON IN THE UNITED STATES WHO IS ABOVE THE LAW OR
IS EVERYONE SUBJECT TO IT? >> I THINK THE IMPORTANT POINT
IS PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE CHEERING FROM THEIR RECEPTIVE PARTISAN
RAM PARTS ABOUT THE INDICTMENT OF AN EX-PRESIDENT.
ACCOUNTABILITY IS KEY FOR JUSTICE AND FOR HEALING AND
RECONCILIATION, BUT THAT IS A SERIOUS MOMENT FOR THE COUNTRY.
>> IF WE CAN I WANT TO FOCUS ON THE NEW REPORTING ABOUT WHO WAS
BEING ASKED AND WHAT THEY'RE BEING ASKED ABOUT AND TRY TO
FIGURE OUT WHO ELSE THEY MIGHT TALK TO.
NOW, ALYSSA, THIS IS A DIFFERENT QUESTION.
IF YOU WANTED TO GET TO WHAT WAS GOING ON IN DONALD TRUMP'S HEAD
AND POTENTIAL CRIMINALITY THERE, YOU'VE TALKED TO MARC SHORT AND
GREG JACOB. WHO ELSE MIGHT YOU TRY TO TALK
TO? >> VERY CREATIVE WAY OF ASKING
THAT. >> JUST GETTING STARTED.
>> PEOPLE SENIOR TO SHORT -- >> IT'S A WORTHY DISCUSSION.
I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET MUCH SENIOR TO SHORT
UNLESS YOU'RE CALLING IN MARK MEADOWS BUT I WOULD SAY THIS, I
THINK THAT A LOT OF WHAT I PERCEIVE DOJ TO BE FOCUSING ON
IS THE PRESSURE CAMPAIGN AND THE WEAPONIZING OF GOVERNMENT AND
THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HEADING UP TO JANUARY 6th.
OBVIOUSLY THERE IS THIS SEPARATE TRACK OF, YOU KNOW, OBSTRUCTING
THE OFFICIAL PROCEEDING, THE VIOLENCE AND ALL THAT, BUT I
THINK REALLY THINGS LIKE THE FAKE ELECTORS, THIS PLOT TO SAY
THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT COULD USE POWERS HE COULDN'T AND
COMMUNICATIONS THAT COULD HAVE BEEN HAD AS PART OF THAT
PRESSURE CAMPAIGN. SO I THINK YOU CAN GET A SENSE
OF WHO MIGHT HAVE KNOWLEDGE AROUND THAT.
THE FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF IS SOMEONE WHO IS IMPORTANT IN
THAT, PAT CIPOLLONE IS SOMEONE WHO IS IMPORTANT IN THAT AND
THAT HE HAD VISIBILITY ON T BUT AGAIN, WE HAVE HEARD FROM PEOPLE
SENIOR MID-LEVEL STAFFERS WHO HAVE HAD INSIGHT INTO THIS.
>> THAT'S WHAT I WAS GETTING AT, MEADOWS, CIPOLLONE.
NORM, CAN DOJ, WOULD DOJ TRY TO GET THEM?
? MEADOWS -- AGAIN, DOJ OPERATES
IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN GEORGIA. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BRING
SOMEONE IN OR SUBPOENA THEM IF THEY MIGHT BE A TARGET, RIGHT?
>> IT'S VERY UNUSUAL IN FEDERAL PROSECUTIONS.
IT DOES HAPPEN. THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE MANUAL
HAS PROVISIONS FOR HOW YOU GO ABOUT IT IF SOMEONE IS A TARGET.
IT'S UNUSUAL. I DOUBT THAT MEADOWS HAS BEEN
CALLED IN YET. CIPOLLONE IS IN A COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT CATEGORY. HE HAS KNOWLEDGE, HIS EXECUTIVE
PRIVILEGE CLAIMS, AS SOMEBODY WHO HELPED ADMINISTER THOSE
CLAIMS IN A WHITE HOUSE, HIS EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE CLAIMS ARE
WEAK. DOJ WON'T PUT UP WITH THE SAME
KIND OF BARGAINING THAT HE DID WITH THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE.
JUST LOOKING AT THE ITINERARY OF WITNESSES WHO WE HAVE SEEN
TESTIFY PUBLICLY, BILL BARR IS GOING TO HAVE IMPORTANT
INFORMATION, HE IS A WILLING PARTICIPANT.
WE'VE SEEN THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN INDIVIDUALS WHO APPEARED BEFORE
CONGRESS, THEY ARE LIKELY TO BE BROUGHT IN.
AND ANYONE WHO CAN ESTABLISH THAT DONALD TRUMP KNEW HE HAD
LOST THE ELECTION, HE KNEW THERE WAS NO LEGAL BASIS FOR THESE
PHONEY ELECTORS AND YET HE ATTACKED NONETHELESS,
CULMINATING IN THAT HORRIBLE VIOLENCE AND CALLING OUT THE
VICE PRESIDENT. THAT IS THE SINGLE MOST
UNFORGIVABLE THING TO ME, THE 2:24 TWEET.
SO THOSE WITNESSES ARE THE ONES DOJ IS LIKELY CALLING IN