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- The original Spider-Man were not good.
Like I grew up watching those and I
was not a huge fan.
- The Toby?
- No, no, no no.
Yeah, yeah Toby.
- You what?
(intense music plays)
- I look back at my fandoms since I was tiny.
You know, the biggest impact I think for
me has been Batman.
When people were really know comics, they know
what, you know, DC is bringing to the table.
- I could see how they can defend like their
video games and their comics, but I don't know
how they're going to back up the movies.
- No shade, but they're movies aren't that great.
- Ultimately, you see a very cookie cutter
pattern of how Marvel makes their films
versus DC, which is super gritty, super dark.
- I will die on a hill of really apologizing
and loving some of these new movies more
than most people should.
- I think my only expectation really is
to kind of understand, you know, where the
other side's coming from.
How do they connect with someone like Superman,
who to me, has the personality of a brick?
- My name is Ryan.
I'm a philosophy major at university.
I studied art history as well.
The more I think about it, those things tie in
a lot for the reason why I love comics so much.
- Hey I'm Will.
I'm a lifelong, I would say comic book fan,
but really DC Homer as my friend would call me.
Apologists some would say to a certain degree.
- So, I'm Matt, and I am as well, a DC guy.
I'm actually trying to get into voice acting
voiceover.
Like watching all these animated shows and
whatnot.
It's really inspiring to see all these characters
come to life through voice and
whatnot, so that's what I'm trying to do.
- Hi I'm Sarah.
Marvel's pretty much always been like
my favorite genre of movies.
I love watching all the movies.
I really love cinematography and I love how
they're always played out, so yeah, I'm a
Marvel fan.
- I'm Nick And I like Marvel so much that I
bought a 3D printer and started printing a
bunch of props for it.
- Oh yeah, oh yeah.
- I've got a four foot Stormbreaker sitting in
my room, not doing anything.
- I'm Chris.
I'm a Marvel fan.
I wish I could say super fan.
Just within the recent years, I've been getting
like deeper and deeper into it, so there's some
things I may not know about, but I'm cultured
around the areas, so I can get around.
- Unless they're comic book fanatics,
I don't hear anybody talking about the comics,
let alone the shows, even the games or anything.
I only hear the movies.
- Thank you for being the only one here by
the way, because it is challenging, I think,
right now to be a DC fan because of that feeling.
Socially, the conversation is Marvel.
So extremely, that every time DC puts out
a movie, it's like almost expected that
you're supposed to on.
- Right.
- Because it's not as good.
They did it wrong.
Now, have they stumbled along the way?
Tons of times, but I get this feeling
that no one's entering into seeing a DC
movie to just be vulnerable and experience
what they're being given.
- And that's as recency bias, right?
Because Christopher Reeve was Superman launch,
but he also thinks about the Batman,
so Michael Keaton, right, and Jack Nicholson
and even Batman Forever with Val Kilmer,
maybe not so much after that, you know,
but there was no Marvel movies at the time.
The Dark Knight kind of faded into,
into the background when people talk about
DC movies and it's like, those were great films.
- Awesome.
- I mean, we don't have the Marvel Cinematic
Universe, in my opinion, without Batman Begins.
- I'm still on your side guys.
- Did you forget what we were here?
- The movies, TV shows, the video games,
the comic books, the books, when you oversimplify
it to one aspect, you're immediately erasing
thousands of people's hard work and not giving
them the credit that they deserve as they add
to the rest of the brand.
- I guess I'm thinking, could you argue that
simply because of the MCU, more people care.
It used to be that to be a nerd back, even in
the nineties, because I love Spider-Man, X-Men,
all that stuff from the nineties.
Doing cosplay, when I was doing cosplay,
people yelling at me saying stupid
dress up movies, all kinds of stuff.
Now, cosplayers get millions of followers
like on Instagram.
The MCU actually made nerds cool.
- Yeah.
- And so when I think of better, I think like
kind of to your point, detracts from all the
like suffering of the nerds that got kicked.
- I had to go through this to get here.
- So now that the MCU exists, I'm like, oh,
now you want to say it's cool.
Okay.
Fine.
Yeah.
- I do believe some of the comics do better than
some of the Marvel stuff that is out.
Like with all the Spider-man,
the original Spider-Man were not good.
Like I grew up watching those and I was
not a huge fan.
- The Toby?
- No, no, no.
Yeah, yeah, Toby.
I did not.
- What?
- He's worse than Andrew Garfield?
- I see those movies as like corny perfection.
It's like absolute cheese.
- You said it's corny.
- Right, I love that.
- He didn't give me that representation.
I'm an awkward teen.
He was like a very, just dark and brooding,
like more DC.
He just was very not awkward.
How I wanted to see Peter Parker.
- You're telling me that Spider-Man 3
dance wasn't awkward to you.
- I was gonna say.
- That was
- Your generation, especially now, you can see
that you guys don't really like the dark gritty
because.
- Everyone wants, everyone just wants happy
stories.
Everything that's going on right now,
you don't want to see even darker.
- I want the pressure of.
- Yeah, exactly.
- I think DC kind of shows people like what
they already see in humanity.
They're like, wow, our city's actually like this.
Like, is this actually happening?
I feel like people kind of get scared and they're
like, yeah, I don't want to deal with that.
- I'm just gonna run real quick.
- It's just the fact that, especially me
growing up, you could just look at like
these different heroes, like I was like, I'm not
built like no Captain America, but I could relate
to him in the heart is what matters, and so I'm
just like, it's just a seeing every character,
I'm like, oh, that's me, oh wait, that could be
me, and I'm just like, I've just experienced
that with Marvel, and that's just how, let me
just run up in here real quick.
- Peter Parker and his anxiety.
It's so relatable as a teenager and seeing
another teenager get all these super powers,
and he's like, I'm just a kid.
Like, I'm just trying to go to school.
Like I need a break.
- It's kind of a combination between the comics,
the TV shows the, the MCU in total, when you
humanize a character first and then introduce
their abilities, you not only give the
audience time to relate to them and attach
themselves to the character, but give them an
opportunity to see them pre, you know,
superpower, pre, you know, amazingness,
things like that, you know, just make Marvel a
just a bit more relatable to me.
- Welcome.
- There is an element of DC that I get,
that they are unrelatable.
Superman really is the most obvious cause
he's overpowered.
All these things, but at the same time, at the
core of all that, is this unbreakable goodness.
Like Superman and one of the things I
always found really endearing is he comes
from a different planet.
He has unlimited power, but at the same time,
once he met Ma, Pa Kent, you know, he fell in
love with like the family and being a high
schooler and learning how to acclimate,
and so at the end of the day, they are
dealing with the same human and basic problems
and conflicts that we have, you know.
- I think that's where Zach really tried to
tie it all in is with Batman versus Superman.
PC fans hated.
They were not about it, and it's just like.
- Don't worry.
We did too.
- Everyone hated it.
Exactly.
People were not a fan of it, but it's just like,
he tried to humanize these characters.
That's, that was really an important step
to take because Superman, Batman,
they were never shown to have a breaking point
or be shown as the villain.
Yeah.
But also going back to representation and
relate-ability like, you know.
Asian, not many Asian superheroes, but you know,
with Shang-Chi and all these other characters
I'd give props to Marvel, and as long as it's
not forced and like shoved down to us,
that's what I really don't like,
but as long as it's not shoved down people's
throats and like, you're going to have to
digest this, then I'm all for it.
- And when you guys did bring up Peter Parker
and Spider-Man with that, me being from New York,
and so I was just like, I see him and I see me,
but at the time I was like, oh, you know what,
I want to go to this college too, and I want
to go here and I want to do that, and I'm like,
you know what, hopefully I do get bit by a spider
on the way there.
So, I'm just like, okay, cool.
- I genuinely as a kid and like having,
when it felt like my own superhero backstories,
like losing a parent at a young age,
being kind of a caretaker to her, my mom,
when I was 15 and still losing that person,
it rewired in my brain, many things,
one of which was take care of other people and
put yourself second, put everybody else first
to never show the crack in that it's actually
crippling you trying to be perfect because I
did always try to say like, when you see me,
you're gonna be like, how does he just fly
through life?
You know what I mean?
- Yeah.
- I thought that was healthy, wasn't,
and then once I realized that I actually could be
vulnerable, I could be broken,
and that being broken is more beautiful,
and it makes you more powerful, that sort of
opened up the flood gates of finding those things
in the DC characters, and I think the writers,
especially now in comics, are going that route.
- Do you want to talk about a no
brainer question?
- I was gonna say, I think we can all agree
that every fandom.
- Right
- Every.
Even if it's something as simple as, you know,
someone's title changing or someone becoming
a new hero, you immediately get the people
on Twitter just being like, I hate this person.
I honestly feel really bad for Brie Larson
because she got the brunt of it during that
whole Captain Marvel phase, and personally,
I liked her.
I think she's a great actress.
I think she's
- I don't really see what the problem is.
- I don't either.
- I'm not a big fan of the character,
but I was like, this is fun.
I don't know why people hated her.
- Exactly, and it's when you dehumanize
the actor and treat them as there only that,
that's not being a fan.
That's being an ass.
- I remember when Black Panther came out,
a lot of people refuse to see it because
they call it, they said it's a PC movie.
- Exactly.
- It's just like, there's so much vitriol
in different corners.
I'd like to believe it's not most people, but
like the loudest voices on social media always.
- Always.
- Yes, exactly.
- Because those are the ones that get attention.
- Right, yeah, even the Black Panther,
anything, like there's supposed to be a
black Superman coming out and people are
going to be like, oh yeah, that's born of
the political correctness, but there's been
iterations of.
- Also it's comic books, so why not?
- It's like, it's not only, it's only
limited to just white people and stuff.
- There's a multi-verse for a reason.
- I get toxicity on my end just for being a girl,
and you guys.
- You cannot do that.
- I mean it's all males, but I've never been
like directly targeted at, but I definitely
do get the sense of like, oh, you're a female,
you don't know what you're talking about,
you have no idea, oh, you're younger,
you have no idea what you're talking about.
- I really probably could have came
with everybody.
I think the only reason why I didn't was because
it was prefaced by saying my community.
I just, I'm not on Twitter, I'm not on
Instagram, and so I don't, I'm ignorant to it,
I guess, is what it is.
I had a weird situation.
I would be, I guess, more in the jock
category growing up in the sense of that was
more my reputation, I suppose,
but anyone who knew me and hey,
my friends came over to my house,
like when I started dating, like
in high school and that girls came over my house.
I had action figures everywhere.
You know, so the jig was up.
You know what I mean?
This is really who I am and what I'm
really about, and I always found I got
a great reaction from that.
I think if, if people buy too much into the, the,
the toxic nature of Marvel versus DC or whatever
the movies and their gripes on it,
they're losing a chance to focus on the
positive of the character and why they love it.
- C'mon bro, I'm going for it.
- They know it too.
- They know what's up.
- They know their place.
- I think that's why that the conversation is
Marvel connects more with like the real person
because DC does feel like Titans.
You know what I mean?
And to me, comic books are American mythology.
I heard that somewhere in a documentary
and it's true.
You know, we don't have like an American mythos
outside of like Paul Bunyan and like some
silly stuff.
It's super heroes is really what it is.
- Yeah.
- And Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, these
like, you know, Atlas holding the world on
their shoulders figures, so it's like,
it's always them.
Batman's like plan to defeat everyone is just I'm
Batman and everyone on earth goes, he's right.
- Get out of the way.
- Yeah.
- I mean if we're gonna get down to the
brass of it, you know, pissed off Superman,
good luck.
Someone taken out the big dog, you know?
- Always see these videos on YouTube, like,
oh yeah, Superman versus Hulk, Batman versus
Ironman.
It's like, it's all made up, so
people have their own opinions.
- And listen until Superman fights Goku.
We know that's the reason.
- See, we're not all delusional.
- I mean, this isn't even the question.
Like the Justice League is way overpowered,
like way overpowered.
- Right.
- I would just say they're brutalities a
lot more severe compared to Marvel characters,
and that was like the only thing that came
to mind, I was saying MCU is a little bit more
light and fluffy, so they have a little bit
more humanistic like thoughts, and I just
feel like they would completely just destroyed
them.
Unfortunately.
- I guess my only question would be, you know,
if you want to pit one person
another person, you know, the whole argument
that I hear a lot with, you know, DC fans is
Batman with prep time.
- With prep time.
- Always wins.
- What is that argument because he's just
a dude.
- I've never made that argument because
honestly the argument is usually he's already
had the prep time.
- Okay.
- That's always the twist is like.
- So, you just assume he's already
figured it out.
- Batman is prepared for every plot.
Like his mind is like, I've calculated 17
million outcomes.
- Like Dr. Strange, essentially.
- He's Doctor Strange, yeah,
like if they were together in a movie, Dr.
Strange was like I saw these outcomes, he'd be
like, yeah, I did too.
And as a reader too, not just a viewer,
I do get bored of that.
You know what I mean?
Because then there's almost no stakes,
cause it's like Batman knew all along,
I was like, oh cool, so it wasn't even,
it didn't even matter, you know?
- You know what I liked about Infinity War
and the Snyder cut was the level of dread
you felt for the characters and what they
were having to go through in order to get
to their goal, and their goal was not
ultimately met, especially with, I got so
emotional after Infinity War, and my head
literally hurt after watching that.
Having the character to be vulnerable,
like not having them at their peak is very
important for the audience to be able to
relate and to be able to feel for their
characters.
- Right.
- Well, what does he know about making movies?
Right?
- I think we all are going to disagree pretty
heavy with that one.
If you look at not just the numbers and
not just the worldwide success, but also the
stories and the emotions and the ebb and flow
of the storytelling.
I think they're definitely not only cinematic,
but some of the best examples of art that
a worldwide audience of different ages and
a lot of different people can come together
and watch it and enjoy, you know, or maybe
sometimes a more boutique or arty film might not
have that same, you know, response.
- Yeah.
- I think that the second you try to put
ground rules on what art is you
fundamentally don't understand.
You're missing the point of art.
- Yeah.
- Absolutely.
- Like, how do you define cinema?
- Right.
- You can't.
There's no cookie cutter definition of, okay,
this movie is cinema, but like Shrek 2 is not like.
- High cinema.
- High cinema, but it's that type of thing
where if you decide that things have limits,
you're already, not only limiting the audience,
but you're limiting creative freedom, you know,
if someone comes along and says, oh, that's
not cinema, what are you telling the future
filmmakers that what they want to do is not
considered cinema you're immediately, you know,
trashing what these new people want to do.
- It brings people together is the biggest thing.
I think a cinema can do that.
Yeah.
- I mean, me and my dad watch it together.
Me and my mom, me and my friends,
and we're all different ages.
That's like the point of cinema, so.
(everybody talking amongst themselves)