as the mother of a 14 year old boy who
has been mugged locally three times last
year once a knifepoint what is the panel
going to do about him got Lina can you
just tell us a bit more about that so
your local to this area he was 13 when
he was first mugged on the High Street
which is the a-10 which is a big main
road
he said just outside this building yeah
and once in this whole park at half
three on a Sunday afternoon in broad
daylight and but he is part of a
generation of children growing up in
these parts who for them it's just
something that happens Kate here her son
was mugged us before Christmas it's just
like you know this this is just it's an
epidemic and there's been no sort of
resolution in terms of arresting people
or not in any of those instance no and
what about you Kate you you're sitting
next has there been any anyone arrested
for your son no nothing at all now
no the case was closed after one day Wow
well that must have been terrifying for
the boys and also for you as parents we
Trevor do you want to kick us off on
this I am why should first say that full
disclosure I I was born ten minutes from
here and I grew up in this area I lived
in up the roads everybody in this room
will know we're wood Green is in a
postcode which is n 22 6sx
the typical number of domestic of sexual
and violent crimes in a London postcode
is 26 in the postcode where I grew up it
is 226 last year 226 so this is not for
it's not across the city but where it is
it is incredibly serious and I you know
I completely feel for you there are
three young people mostly young men
dying in this city
every week from knife crimes we there
are two women who died from domestic
violence every week and we have rightly
plowed enormous attention and resources
into that we are not yet doing the same
thing for these young people and I think
we need to be clear what we're talking
about when we're talking about knife
crime this is not some accidental thing
what is happening here is young people
are being hunted down by packs of other
people they are being stabbed and aside
from the ones who are dying there are
hundreds in the city who are being
stabbed and forgive me for being
absolutely blunt about this there is now
a thing that they do they stab kids in
the anus so they have to wear colostomy
bags this is vicious it's a war and it's
out of control and we and the
authorities seem not to be interested
too interested except to say let's have
an argument about are there more police
are there more cut actually everybody
who knows about this knows that these
kids are doing this in a way that you'd
have to have North Korean levels of
policing to catch them at it so I think
we've got to do some different things
first of all go to understand what's
happening here and the first thing is
who's doing the killing and who's doing
dying and let me be absolutely Frank it
is young black men who are dying and by
the way young black men who are doing
the killing so we need to focus on those
communities and those areas and not
pretend that this is something which is
just abstract secondly we need to help
some of the communities where the young
people have come straight from war zones
in this area I think everybody here will
know what I'm talking about we throw
them into schools or for people who very
people who don't live in here we have we
London is a very mixed communities
vibrant all the rest of it and we've
received rightly people from terrible
backgrounds trauma children who have
seen their relatives killed in front of
them and what do we do we put them
straight into school we don't help them
we don't give them therapy that's a kind
of thing we need
- do we need to spend first of all
locate the problem properly secondly we
need to spend as much as we can to help
these young people find a way through I
mean I could talk about this all night
and I know I haven't got the time I feel
so passionately about this I'm sorry
I could go on about it but let's take
this seriously and let's not turn this
let me preempt into an argument about
who's going to spend more and more
police that is not going to be the
answer the answer here is recognized who
is killing who is dying and help those
people not some general policy
well just to add to what Trevor is
saying so we have knife offenses at the
moment or the highest level ever
recorded and then today in terms of
offenses recorded that are then result
in a suspect being charged or summons
that's at a record low around just 7% of
offenses so Mike obviously I'm going to
come to you now as a next Chief
Constable of Durham you've got first
experience of trying to deal with this
what what's your view what did you do in
dome to try and have an effect I'll come
to that if I may Fionna first of all
lean and K dreadful that you've had to
go through this in particularly our
children and after the show if you want
to see me then I'm sure you're being
looked after but I can certainly just
make sure that I'm sure the Metropolitan
Police and the victim support are doing
their best but I would just if you want
I can just cast an eye over that for you
this is my fault
this is the fault of the police because
for 39 years now I've done your bidding
I've done it rather well actually I'm
rather proud of myself I've locked up a
lot of drug dealers and when I've locked
them up I've put them in the court and
I've gone to prison for a long time but
two hours hours after I've locked them
up behind my back to more violent drug
dealers have tried to take over the
patch and the most violent one is one so
then I go after the most violent drug
dealer that's taken over from the
previous one
and this is a Darwinian spiral of
violence then we're quite sneakiest cops
we employ undercover cops and we employ
double agents and the drug dealers
worked out that we don't employ people
who were 13 and 14
so that's who they recruit to do their
bidding the people who deliver all the
drugs that's wanted in London
principally under 17 and we've created
that we've created that because we've
your bidding we are never going to Iraq
I agree with Trevor we are never going
to arrest our way out of this problem of
course the police have got a role to
play of course we've got to investigate
crime and of course it's vital that they
attack some leaner in case children are
investigating the fullest extent but the
cut since 2010 have had had an impact
there's got to be a grown-up debate
about drugs 39 years ago when I joined
policing most of the heroin in this
country came from Afghanistan it still
does we've got the same number of police
officers but 100 times more heroin
coming from Afghanistan so what's the
answer well the answer is got to be
youth and social provision we've got to
prevent this we've got to get upstream
and sadly the cuts to policing are a
mere shadow of the cuts to local
authority budgets over the last 10 years
here is concerning what they to lady
said over there three years ago I was
mobbed while in labor a way to Homer T
and T to David Hospital
yeah just down there is stuff for heal
until today
I haven't had any arrests and it clears
his clothes and they are not at him
where I live now in 7 Kings just behind
my window trim em forth and kill
themselves i watch everything and nobody
as if I'm feeling okay the psychological
effect of the pastor on this these are
the killings had to have this year just
behind my window and no one has asked
how are you faring are you okay apart
from my family who was in doing my
school runs for me so I just want to
know is it me right for for the
government to set up some organization
that can give advice and you know any
way to help the victims and how are you
faring so so Teresa when you've heard
the woman there speak so perfect and
also you heard what might have to say in
terms of policing numbers to a certain
extent but nonetheless has made an
impact and also but as nothing like
we're saying relative to the cuts to
local authority budgets and then we've
had a Conservative government for last
ten years
well this current situation is
intolerable the upsurge in knife crime
has to be dealt with and we are
determined to do that and do you feel in
part responsible when you hear someone
like my talk about cuts for local
authority budgets I believe that we need
to recruit 30,000 more police we're
committed to doing that we need a strong
police in response we've strengthened
stop and search powers which are crucial
we're giving police the tasers they have
requested and we also fully recognize
that we need to invest more in the
programs to prevent young people from
getting involved in gangs and crime in
the first place and so we've got 700
million pounds worth the programs
planned now for exactly that we need a
general approach it's a tough policing
response to bring the perpetrators to
justice but also a really comprehensive
route to try and ensure that young
people do not get involved in this kind
of cycle of violence in the first place
and to promote that public health
approach which has worked so well in
Glasgow and many cities in the United
States that is it's not just making up
for the cuts that you've already made no
it's not I mean if you look at the last
time this upsurge in violent crime on
the streets of London happened that was
in around 2008 and actually Boris as
mayor of London brought the murder rate
down by 50% and it went down across the
country not just in it he's possible to
do this and we are determined to do this
because we have to keep the young people
on the streets of this city and others
safe there's a lot of hands up so I'm
going to Trevor whew I'm just gonna get
around the audience a little bit yes
Trevor said about the people who are
killing are within the black community
the people who are dying are within the
black community so does it mean then
that because it's a problem belonging to
a particular section of a society that
our government either does not
understand the need or has become
desensitized about this population this
group of our population who for some
reason email result from a vicious cycle
of deprivation that no one cares to look
into
I don't know that policing is the answer
to it I don't know that the political
argument about investment is the right
answer to this problem
we need to look further than this
I think you're absolutely right
this problem began way before cuts to
the met it began with the complete
abolition of youth services and all the
areas we've just seen local services for
you just stripped out of communities and
young men have nowhere to go they have
nowhere to hurt turn they have no
support and where do they turn they turn
to each other they become each other's
families the cornerstones to young
people become successful adults or
self-esteem confidence self-worth and
the places where they were getting that
were youth services without that this is
where the problem began I think these
issues are driven by people's
consumptions in London is the cocaine
capital of Europe and I'm sure we've all
been to parties I have where it's like
visibly on show and people have no
qualms about using it and these people
who join these gangs they see it because
there's money in drug dealing and so
maybe the government is look at its drug
policies as well and maybe there's kind
of an option in a decriminalization
model like they have in Portugal or
something that might actually solve it
from the demand side at I not parties I
go to you but maybe under Thank You
Trevor I do agree with you what you said
about it's not just police numbers but I
don't think you can underestimate the
Conservative government's cuts or the
police numbers because there's a edge to
20,000 police officers that Boris
Johnson is going to recruit will only
only be just begin to bring the levels
back to where they were but it's such a
significant thing the police not the
cuts and it has to be taken into
consideration the part that has played
in knife crime
I mean I think you're right I think that
we're not just talking about cuts to
police numbers we're also talking about
me about the the community support
officers who used to be the eyes and
ears who used to run the boxing clubs in
my area who used to actually have a
connection with the community and be
able to because communities cannot be
pleased
they don't you policing isn't something
which is done to a community it can only
be done with the agreement of the
community and you must work with the
community I my heart goes out to you to
you too I'm a local mother as well all
three of my kids have been mugged
they've all had their bicycles stolen
they've all I mean it's it's it's
terrifying one of the perpetrators was
taken to court because because my
daughter actually ran out and got a
police car to flagged it down and got
the police to arrest the person but it's
terrifying and it is something that we
live with day to day living in the inner
city and there are levels so there are
these there's sort of Street muggings
that go on and then there is the the
drug dealers and the drug gangs and as a
local member of parliament I have been
to so many mother's houses not just
actually black mothers but but mother's
throat all different types from all
different communities you know because
the gang is actually a very multiracial
and I've been to see and I go and knock
on the door and I give them um a letter
and I say if you ever need me I'm here
and sometimes they asked me and
immediately and sometimes they don't
it takes years and I continue to have
families that I continue to look after
because nobody ever gets over this and
and not only is the life of the young
person who's murdered ruined and they're
all of their family but so is the stupid
terrible young man who has stabbed
someone and you in return if they get
caught goes to prison and the family's
lives are wrecked we know what the
solution is we have to have more police
officers we have to have more community
police officers but we also have to have
more youth services my borough next door
has had seventy percent cuts from
government to its central grant Hackney
has had the same and what happens when
you cut back a local authority that much
they only do what the law says they have
and because the law doesn't say they
have to provide youth services because
they have to provide social care and the
other things which they must do looking
after kids in care and that sort of
thing they they cut back on youth
services they don't want to but they
have to and then as somebody else said
what do these youngsters do and actually
when a child gets to 11 12 13 14 they
want to find a role model outside the
family because they did this part of
growing up and if there isn't a sports
teacher or there isn't a youth worker or
there isn't a teacher who has the time
for them they will find role models
amongst their own age group and faces
add gangs develop so I don't directly
disagree with anything that people have
said on this panel and indeed in the
audience and I particularly appreciate
the point about you know middle-class
drug takers who are sort of you know
happy to take the cocaine and not worry
about who's supplying it at the same
time as well as a mother of a 19 year
old I can tell you I was very relieved
when he got to the age of 19 because I
felt he was so vulnerable in a
neighborhood like this not very far from
here when he was sort of 1415 and so on
and I'm glad he's sort of finally
getting to manhood but in my area where
there have been several deaths
unquestionably it's not just a case of
more police but more visible police on
the streets I hope that's what Boris
Johnson means by an extra 20,000 I'd
like to see a lot more at one stage the
police came and sat in our area where
local used congregated they were there
night after night for about a month and
that finally disrupted the gangs and
they haven't properly returned it's
still a bit scary but they haven't
properly returned to three years on and
that's the importance of having cops
that really care about those communities
and are determined to just be there
until they have done something about the
problem now I've also had experience
recently of some poor kid dying on the
street near me and there was a sort of
crime scene ticker tape and I went up to
the local policeman and I said what's
happened and he acted like I was you
know
nobody who had a real nerve to ask what
was going on in my own community so I
really do expect police to be polite to
the people who live in the area to
discuss problems with people who live
there I mean for all they know I could
have been a witness I could have seen
someone run away I could have seen
someone put a knife in the bin but they
acted like they didn't want to hear from
me and I think a lot of us feel like you
could increase police numbers but what
are the police actually doing are they
out there helping us they have done in
the past I have benefited from that but
not always I'd love to see more of that
active bobbies on the beat whatever just
active policing so that you can go and
call somebody and say hey what's going
on well Trevor name what to come back in
but my gun are you trying to get away
today if only you'd been the chief
constable in Durham where they've got
five outstandings not for because you
spot-on
we what we need here is that and if one
of my police officers had been as rude
to you as that they're not gonna be
jolly or impressed policing is just dead
straightforward folks we've got to be
approachable we've got to be kind we've
got to be ruthless when when it's
appropriate but you've got to know who
we are you don't know our names how can
we possibly police with you when Robert
Peel set up the police he said the
police of the public and the public of
the police we are not an Army of
Occupation
and sadly if if police officers feel
beleaguered and I've seen this then
sometimes you do get those dysfunctional
relationships you could have
neighbourhood police officers hopefully
and in a local neighborhood police
station and you know their names and
they are on patrol with PC ourselves
those police officers and PC ourselves
have got our spring in the step one of
the things that inspectors always said
when they came to Durham was gosh it
feels different here and and you've got
to engendered that feeling that you can
do something let's not be fatalistic
about it but and this is the final point
you ask me what we didn't feel we arrest
people with absolutely arrest people but
we don't necessarily prosecute now if
somebody's been stabbed and clearly that
goes to court or what I'm talking about
the precursor offense
is the precursor behavior we all know
now about adverse child experiences so
we're now in Durham there's something
called a mini police every junior school
now has it so many police force and we
make sure that the most disadvantaged
kids are part of that with a police
uniform they learn about social cohesion
and it isn't twee it's hard-hitting but
it has a major impact those children
have got those social values those civic
values for the rest of the lives Trevor
briefly um look I'm gonna push back on a
couple of things I don't want drugs in
my city I would like to have more police
officers but we're talking about a
specific thing three young men will die
before this program is broadcast again
and we know what they look like we know
what part of the city they come from and
we also know that it isn't about
something that's happening externally
you know talk to these kids and they
will tell you about beef they will tell
you about that the absolute insane
reasons these things happen which on
which are outside the can of people on
this panel and people in audience we
need to understand what they are doing
and why don't thing all right the reason
I feel passionate about it if I had a
son he'd be well off but I bet you he'd
stand a good chance of being involved in
this kind of thing too they're too
practical things I think we could do
first of all I would like to see
somebody stop glorifying the culture and
the music and all of that that does
drill guns kill kill kill and by the way
disrespect women and we hear we make
heroes of the people who make this music
I don't need to be blunt about that and
that's one of the reasons that young
people are into it and the second thing
I think we could do yeah we can have
more police but that's going to take
time if you go across the road from here
there's a park please help our guide you
know my mom pushed me around it as a
baby
nobody will walk across that Park
tonight because it's too dangerous one
of the reasons that we we have public
spaces now which used to be
the province of janitors and park
keepers and schools would have teaching
assistants that would walk with people
over in Hackney that's one of the things
that most born Academy successful school
did maybe one of the things you could do
is invest in bringing back some of those
intermediate professions not the big
deal but people who are just there
because these things happen in places
where nobody is watching so the more we
can have those park keepers back those
janitors of people who are around the
more likely we are to protect our kids
do the simple thing first I'm gonna move
on a mix answer a lot of questions but
before I just want to come back to you
Lena
what do you think about what you've
heard I probably know about 30 people
who've been mugged in Glassell Park
through this community network that I'm
part of and I think I've seen two police
men once patrolling and we we have we
are communicating with the authorities
through this network that I'm part of
and we net we tell them we actively
encourage people to report but we you
know you never see apart from once any
any any place there and then the other
thing I just wanted to say is that
there's been a sort of evidence that
says the increase in exclusion from
school is tied to the increase in street
crime and so yet we are excluding more
and more and more and as schools are
becoming straight showing stricter and
stricter and you know it just seems like
that is a question for the Tory
government
you
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