Student: Would you concede that their failure ultimately stems
from Western imperialism and the exploitation
of these regions, which were successful prior to
the West conquering and then exploiting them
for their raw materials?
Shapiro: No.
[audience laughter]
Student: I disagree with you on just about everything.
Shapiro: Well, thank you for coming.
I appreciate it, really. Student: No problem, my friend.
[audience applause]
You noted that
Western civilization was built upon Judeo-Christian values,
but would you concede that other civilizations
such as the Islamic civilization, especially during its
golden age, and Chinese civilization and Indian civilization,
which were very economically successful as late as the
17th and 18th century, would you concede that their failure
ultimately stems from Western imperialism and the
exploitation of these regions, which were successful
prior to the West conquering and then exploiting them
for their raw materials?
Shapiro: No.
[audience laughter]
Historically, I would not concede that.
The Islamic world didn't fail because the West
was involved with the Islamic world.
The Islamic world failed
because it fell into fundamentalism.
Between 800 and 1400, as you know, the Islamic world
was responsible for the preservation of a lot of the
Greek literature that I'm very fond of.
It was intellectually thriving.
There was economic growth.
It was an attempt to balance
fundamental principles and reason.
And then, Islam fell into a form of fundamentalism
that tried to rule out reason in favor of theocracy.
That has continued, unfortunately, until today.
As far as the failure of economic growth
in places like China? China was successful
as a mercantilist state in the same way that some
Western countries were successful as mercantilist states.
But what has made the world different
is not mercantilist states.
What has made the world different is a fundamental
recognition of the alien ability of individual human labor,
and that is what has allowed the West to grow beyond China.
China is still a very powerful country,
economically speaking, but it has not embraced the principle
of individual human liberty still,
and that's a serious problem.
I don't think that imperialism can really explain
the failures of other civilizations to grow beyond
a certain point or stagnation at a certain point.
I think that's putting a little bit too much,
historically speaking,
not enough on the civilizations themselves
and too much on military conquest.
I mean, how long did the military conquest of China last?
China was in control of its own fate before and after.
The conquest of China, including of Hong Kong,
lasted what, approximately 100 years, 130 years?
Student: Mainland China, roughly up until 1949 when the Maoists
took over. Hong Kong up until like 1997.
Shapiro: Right.
By the way, Hong Kong was the most successful
economic area of China.
So if we're talking about economic stagnation,
Hong Kong is actually a terrible example.
It's a great example of how adopting Western values
in cultures that were not originally Western
has led to massive economic growth.
It's also true of free markets in Singapore
and in South Korea and in every other place
that has adopted Western values with regard
to free markets and property ownership.
The conquest of those areas may be unjustifiable
on an imperialist level, but from an economic growth
standpoint, it was very good for Hong Kong
that Hong Kong was conquered by the West,
just in pure GDP growth terms.
As far as the conquest of China, you're right.
From the Opium Wars,
which began what, the 1850s until about 1949?
About a 100-year gap right there.
That is not what leads China to be a laggard
in terms of economic growth.
It certainly is not what leads trying to be a laggard
in terms of human freedom.
There is a great lack of human freedom in China,
far beyond the West, leading up to Western imperialism
and then following Western imperialism.
The question is, the expansion of Western values,
are those good for countries or bad for countries?
That's not a justification of imperialism,
which can in fact lead to the subjugation of peoples,
obviously, but I'm loathed to blame
every problem in every part
of the developing world on Western imperialism.
I don't think the record quite bears that out.
[audience applause]