Welcome to the Washington Week. Bookshelf. I'm Yamiche Alcindor. Tonight We discussed
the explosive revelations in the newly released book. This will not pass.
Trump Biden and the battle for America's future. The book has helped
shed light on the actions of former President Donald Trump and House
Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, among others, and on the days surrounding
the January 6th capital attack.
Joining me tonight to discuss this amazing new reporting are the
authors of the book Alex Burns, national political correspondent
for The New York Times and here in Studio. Jonathan Martin, national
political correspondent for The New York Times. One. Congratulations.
You're both my former co workers, So I'm very, very happy to see
your book selling out and just flying off the shelves. Thank you
Alex I want to start with you? You shine a light, and it's such a
Such a light on sort of what happened in the wake of January 6th
in the wake of this capital attack. I wonder what did your reporting
revealed to you about President Trump and the GOP and sort of how
they approached and saw the capital attack.
What you need. What I think is so important about the narrative in
our book is that it really zooms in closely on those days immediately
after the insurrection when the Republican Party's bond with Donald
Trump was really, really put to a strenuous test.
And the things that you heard in those days from men like Kevin McCarthy
and Mitch McConnell was not all that different from what you're hearing
from people like Liz Cheney and Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden. They
were appalled by Donald Trump's role in joining up a violent assault
on the seat of American government and for a brief
Emphasis on brief window of time They were they sounded like they
were determined to do something about it. And you meet with the book
details is how they got to that point with Trump and how they backed
away from it, because within a matter of weeks, Kevin McCarthy is
down at Mara Lilo again Opposing for Donald Trump, pulling for a
photo with Donald Trump and Mitch McConnell to this day has a has
had very, very little to say in public.
That matches what he said in private in those days. It's fascinating
the way that you sort of really reveal and open up the curtain behind
what was going on in the GOP. I wonder if I could stick with you.
Um, How did what did your reporting tell you about President Trump's
ability to continue to hold the grip on the GOP and I saw an interview
where he said Trump wants people to think that he's running for president
is that part of his grip on the GOP?
Well what trump the way Trump maintains His grip on the GOP is by
way of the voters who support the GOP. We are you know, in this In
those crucial weeks after the insurrection, there was clearly a moment.
When people like Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell and Mike Pence
might have spoken out more and tried to move public opinion against
Donald Trump within the rank and file of his own party that didn't
happen.
What Republicans in Washington in the states found was their voters
were sticking with the guy for the most part, and what those Republicans
then decided for the most part was they didn't want to get on the
wrong side of their voters. So you know for
Yeah, a lot of people. I think like to imagine that Donald Trump
has this sort of elaborate and affair IUs grip on the Republican
Party. When the bottom line is he controls, you know, it's a demand
side issue. Voters want Trump within the Republican Party. And so
that's where Republican politicians go.
And one more for you, Alice because you weren't because I want to
get you to to weigh in on this abortion reporting. How does that
connect to your reporting and the former president's ability to continue
to be popular? I interviewed so many somebody voters who didn't like
The former president. Trump was brash, but who's stuck with him?
Hoping that Roe v. Wade would be overturned. And now it looks like
maybe that will happen.
Right. It's a very transactional relationship for a lot of those
voters with former President Trump and certainly for Republican leaders
in Washington around the country, they recognize all the things that
other people find offensive about him.
And they decided that's not that important because what they're going
to get in return is three Supreme Court justices and perhaps perhaps
likely the end of Roe v. Wade. I'll just add a dimension. Our interview
with President Trump, and this wasn't there actually is not in the
book. But we asked him about the Republican Party's view on abortion.
And I want to emphasize that I'm paraphrasing here and these aren't
exact words. He didn't talk about abortion and the right to and the
right to life.
In the kind of passionate language of a true believer like Mike Pence,
he said. Basically, abortion is a 50 50 issue, and you know, we have
our 50% in the Democrats have their 50%. But again, it's not a verbatim
quote. But he's talking about it in pretty sort of clinical tactical
terms, not as somebody who believes deeply in his heart as a person
of faith or otherwise.
That it's important to protect the rights of the unborn. No, it's
the great political irony of our time. If it happens that Donald
Trump delivered three support Supreme Court justices, potentially
who could overturn Roe, and he himself is hardly invested in the
issue beyond as Alex there alluded to from a a strictly political
transactional approach in terms of what
It could mean to him in terms of winning the primary and then won
the presidency. And obviously, in that regard, it was critical because
a lot of those voters that you just mentioned Yamiche who were skeptical
about that Trump's character or conduct, they said, Well,
He promised us that he would vote in a certain way or would appoint
the right justices, and he put my pence on the ticket. That's a pretty
good signal, and the the alternative is Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden.
Well,
That's what they're going to vote for. I think that could prove faithful.
Yeah, well, my favorite part of your book roll. It has been the receipts.
I mean, there longer than the ones you get at CVS. It's just recordings
after recordings. I want to come to you first Jonathan on this because
there was a report that that Kevin McCarthy I had this reporting
at the time to that he called President Trump and was very angry
on January 6th and you write in the book.
No. Trump says McCarthy has not clashed with him over the phone with
the riots still in progress. He wouldn't say that you said Trump
said. So why? Then? Did McCarthy go around claiming the other people
that he's tougher with Trump in private than he really is?
The former president packed into two words Inferiority complex. I
wonder if you can, really, I mean, it's just It's just such good
writing. I wonder. What did you learn about this? What surprised
you when you think about sort of the interactions that you see behind
the scenes versus what people were doing great question. I think
one of the things that we deal with this book and both parties.
Is really shine a light on the difference between the private reality
and the public portrayal. We take Raiders inside the room and in
a lot of cases via primary sources, like audio recordings to capture
the fact that these politicians are talking very differently in private
about Trump, Certainly, but if they're Democrats talking very differently
about their own leaders.
Than they do in public, and I think it's important for voters for
Americans who are watching this to know what their leaders actually
think. And what the hell they actually feel. And when it comes to
the Donald Trump.
The vast majority of Republican lawmakers have little regard for
Donald Trump is certainly in the Senate, and obviously among a lot
of people in the house, too, but they feel like they don't have a
choice. You make them that their voters like him, so they have to
stick with him, But obviously in private, it's a very different story.
And I think Trump
Sort of knows that some of these folks are playing a double game
on him, and that's the reason why he said what he told us there in
the interview at Mara Lago that Kevin McCarthy was trying to portray
himself as the sort of tough guy in public. I took it to Trump and
told him what he did was wrong.
And what Trump is telling us that that didn't happen. And when we
asked him why he, you know, put a dagger in McCarthy, right, and
few are already complex. That's what he said. It's just inferiority
complex. I mean, it's just a diet is as you said a dagger, Alex.
In this book. He also revealed that in a phone call with other Republican
leaders on January 10th McCarthy McCarthy, of course, House Minority
Leader McCarthy. He called out certain members of his own party,
including Matt Gates of Florida, Mo. Brooks of Alabama Way in here
on this idea of what McCarthy is saying in private versus the public
persona that he that he has
Yeah, I mean, I think this is a really, really important moment and
maybe as important as anything that Kevin McCarthy says about Donald
Trump, Because I'm that call that you mentioned on January 10th.
He's talking about a couple far right members of the House Republican
conference, including Matt Gates of Florida and Mo Brooks of Alabama,
both of whom have said things on and around January, 6th.
That make their colleagues very, very nervous, and some of those
colleagues are in leadership, and one of them is Kevin McCarthy.
He sees a potential straight line between the things that these guys
are saying.
And the possibility of new violence against members of Congress.
This is this is something that Democrats talk about a lot in public.
It's something that is very, very small number of Republicans like
Liz Cheney, who's been the target of some of this rhetoric, we'll
talk about in public. You don't hear Republican leaders like Kevin
McCarthy out there in public saying You've got to watch what you
say.
Because you never know who's going to take it seriously. I take it
literally and then take action. There have been a couple of points
over the last year last summer, folks may remember there was a bomb
threat directed
At the Capitol.
When it was all resolved, and the and the perpetrator was apprehended
more Brooks again as far right member from Alabama who addressed
the rally on January, 6th proceeded the insurrection.
After this bomb threat, he puts out a statement essentially sympathizing
with the man who made the bomb threat, so he understands why people
would be upset about a tyrannical socialist government.
Kevin McCarthy has nothing to say about that. This is a member of
Congress sympathizing with someone carrying out a bomb threat. He
has nothing to say what we reveal in the book and what you've learned
what folks have heard Kevin McCarthy say on the tapes. We gathered
for this book.
Isn't that kind of language is dangerous and that it could put people's
lives in danger. And on January 10th
Kevin McCarthy says that it's very important to him that they not
play politics with that, because they don't want to be responsible.
And they want to potentially miss something or cause something and
regret it later. That's not language that we had ever heard from
Kevin McCarthy on camera.
And Jonathan. I want to ask you about the Biden version of the Biden
reporting here. But one quick question What's keeping President Trump
from turning on Kevin McCarthy? Anyone who's covered Trump knows
that he just changed his mind if he wants to quickly about about
on that while I still might yet I think it's possible that he's still
good turn on him. There's nothing that's permanent with Trump.
I think it's certainly plausible that at some point, he'll he'll
He'll sort of stop. Stop sort of teasing Kevin what I think the reason
right now is very simple. He likes the idea that when car these sort
of on a string for him that he can humiliate McCarthy and McCarthy
grovel and as long as he can do that for a while, as long as that's
entertaining him for a while, will keep doing it. But to your point
Nothing's guaranteed. Okay to the Biden administration. Now you're
a lot of the challenges facing balancing moderates and and and progressive.
What? What can you tell us? Half the book is on 2021 President Biden.
In particular, we sort of cover in depth. The tensions in his White
House between his White House and
Vice president's office and certainly on Capitol Hill. And I think
you know the challenge President Biden has is that he ran on as somebody
who could a beat Trump and unify the country, but also somebody who
was going to offer a pretty transformative agenda. And obviously
there's two things tend to be intention because you made some folks
voted for him for the former and some books voted for him for the
ladder, and I think he's had this sort of try to pick up pursuing,
and he largely chose trying to pursue a very progressive agenda.
Introduce so with extra equally divided Congress created some real
challenges for him, I think explains, in part why his numbers have
sagged, but we have some really fascinating details in here about
his rivalries, including waiting for President Obama took the words
out of my mind my mouth last question to you, Alex. In the book,
you report. Quote both of you. Report.
Nancy Pelosi says quote Obama is jealous of Biden and
you also report that, Biden reportedly told an advisor. I'm confident
that Barack is not happy with the coverage of this administration
as more transformative than his, um, last question to you talk about
that rivalry.
Sure. I mean, this is already such a time capsule from what feels
like a different political age. But you know if people may find it
difficult, even to remember that this happened, But a year ago, Joe
Biden was riding high. He had come into office. He had passed a $2
trillion covid relief package that created this or greatly expanded
the child tax credit. He was being hailed as
And the first president to really attack poverty and sweeping way
on the scale of Lyndon Johnson.
And in those days, there was a whole lot of chatter around the White
House and pretty close to Joe Biden that it sure seems like those
clever Obama staffers who always looked down on him.
May have underestimated the old man after all, And there was a whole
lot of chatter among as you know, columnists and pundits and Democratic
leaders over sympathetic to Biden, his agenda that finally the Democrats
have a president who really gets how Washington works can really
work. The Senate work the house and in those days, according to our
reporting in this book, Barack Obama was
Jealous of Biden. He was frustrated with this narrative, and he would
call up people in D C and say, Listen, you need to understand. I
was dealing with a different Democratic party. Back then I was dealing
with different Washington. It was a more conservative time There
was a defensiveness on the part of the former president, because
there's always been this prevailing narrative that suits them both
very, very well politically, that they are brothers and the best
of friends, and the reality has always been a lot more complicated.
There's always been tension between the two of them.
There's always been a lot of insecurity, like all vice presidents,
including the current vice president, Joe Biden, put up with his
fair share of indignities from West Wing staffers during his time
in the vice presidency, and for a brief period of time in 2021, it
sure seemed like the shoe was on the other foot. Well, that is fascinating
reporting. We'll have to leave it there. Thank you so much to Alex.
And to Jonathan. And for joining us, I'm Yamiche. Alcindor, Please
definitely grab the book.
And good night from Washington.