IS BACK AND CAROL BENNING, A
MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR.
I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS
PIECEMEAL.
I WANT TO PUT UP THIS ACCESS OF
PUTIN, TRUMP, TUCKER CARLSON,
BECAUSE I THINK WE HAVE
MISTAKENLY THOUGHT THAT WORLD
EVENTS OR TRAGEDIES OR RED LINE
OR THE SLAUGHTER OF INNOCENTS OR
AS TONY BLINKEN SAID, THE
COMMISSION OF WAR CRIMES, THAT
THESE THINGS COULD BE DEFROSTED
AND PUT ON ICE.
BUT IT IS CLEAR THEY ARE NOT.
TUCKER CARLSON HAS BEEN
AMPLIFYING RUSSIAN
DISINFORMATION, BLAMED AMERICA
FOR THE WAR MARCH 12th AND FAR
RIGHT EMBRACE OF THE BIO WEAPON
CONSPIRACY THEORY AS THE BOMBS
WERE FALLING ON MARY UPIUPOL AND
LEARNED THAT THE KREMLIN FEELS
IT IS ESSENTIAL TO FEATURE
TUCKER CARLSON.
HAVE YOU EVER COVERED ONE OF THE
TWO AMERICAN POLITICAL PARTIES
ASSOCIATING THEMSELVES WITH AN
AMERICAN ADVERSARY AT A TIME OF
WAR?
>> ALMOST NEVER.
I STILL REMEMBER, NICOLLE, AND
I'M SO GLAD YOU FRAME DD THIS TH
WAY YOU DO.
I REMEMBER ONE OF THE MOST
CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS JESSE
HELM FAMOUSLY SAYING WE DRAW A
LINE AT THE BORDER OF THIS
COUNTRY.
WE ARE NOT DEMOCRATS AND
REPUBLICANS, WHEN WE LEAVE THE
BORDER OF THIS COUNTRY AND WE
ARE AGAINST FACING AN ADVERSARY,
I'M PARAPHRASING HIM THERE
OBVIOUSLY.
BUT IT IS SO STRIKING BECAUSE
DONALD TRUMP SPEAKS TODAY OR
RATHER YESTERDAY IN THAT
INTERVIEW WITH REAL AMERICA'S
VOICES NETWORK, THIS UBER
CONSERVATIVE NEWS SITE, HE
SPEAKS OF PUTIN AS IF HE'S JUST
ANOTHER GUY THAT MAYBE HAS SOME
CROSS FEELINGS WITH THE UNITED
STATES.
AND IN FACT HE'S A NATIONAL
SECURITY THREAT TO OUR COUNTRY.
AND HE'S A SECURITY THREAT RIGHT
NOW TO THE STABILITY OF EUROPE.
AND ALL AMERICANS KNOW THAT.
AND REPUBLICANS KNOW THAT.
LINDSEY GRAHAM ACTUALLY TODAY
SAID THAT HE WAS -- HE WOULD NOT
HAVE SAID WHAT TRUMP SAID ABOUT
PUTIN.
WHAT IS ALSO REALLY STRIKING,
AGAIN IT IS IMPORTANT HOW YOU
FOCUS EXACTLY IN ON THE MOST
IMPORTANT CONCERN, HE IS
SOLICITING FOREIGN INTERFERENCE
BY ONE OF OUR GREATEST, GRAVEST
ENEMIES ESSENTIALLY.
WHEN HE SAID WE DIDN'T KNOW THIS
UNTIL ROBERT MUELLER'S TEAM
INVESTIGATED IT BUT WHAT HE SAID
IN THE SUMMER OF 2016 RUSSIA, I
HOPE YOU'RE LISTENING, AND I
HOPE YOU'LL BE HUNTING DOWN
HILLARY CLINTON'S EMAILS AND THE
OPERATIVES WENT BACK TO WORK AND
THEY WERE AT HOME AND RETURNED
TO THE WORK OF HACKING AND
TRYING TO HACK HILLARY CLINTON'S
VARIOUS SERVERS AND ENTRY POINTS
OF HER COMPUTER TO FIND THOSE
EMAILS ON AN ERRAND FROM THE
REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE,
DONALD TRUMP.
NOW, THIS WEEK HE'S ASKED RUSSIA
FOR MORE INFORMATION WITH REGARD
TO HUNTER BIDEN AND IT WILL BE
INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT IS
PRODUCED FROM THAT SOLICITATION.
>> YOU KNOW, PETE STRUCK, IT IS
HARD TO ON A DAY LIKE TODAY
START WITH POLITICS.
AND THE POLITICS OF A DEFEATED
TWICE IMPEACHED EX PRESIDENT BUT
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO COVER AN
ATTEMPTED AT PEACE TALKS IN
ISTANBUL TURKEY AND COVER SOME
STUNNING NEW REPORTING FROM NBC
NEWS ABOUT PUTIN'S INFORMATION
BUBBLE WITHOUT EXAMINING WHAT WE
KNOW PUTIN DOES SEE.
WE KNOW HE SEES WHAT TUCKER
CARLSON DOES EVERY NIGHT AND HE
SEES WHAT DONALD TRUMP SAID AND
DOES EVERY NIGHT.
WE KNOW AS CAROL IS TALKING
ABOUT THAT THERE IS A CALL AND
ANSWER.
TO WHAT DONALD TRUMP CALLS FOR
AND WHAT HIS POLITICAL INTERESTS
ARE.
I WONDER IF YOU COULD SPEAK TO
THIS -- I HATE THE WORDS LIKE
RED LINE AND TRIP WIRES BECAUSE
THEY'VE ALL BEEN ANNIHILATED BY
THE TRUMP ERA.
BUT WHAT DOES THIS REPRESENT,
SORT OF IN THE WORLD OF DEALING
WITH AN ADVERSARY LIKE RUSSIA.
HOW HAMSTRUNG ARE WE BY HAVING
THE LAST PRESIDENT SPEAKING OUT
TO, CALLING OUT TO VLADIMIR
PUTIN LIKE HE'S SOME POLITICAL
ALLY AT A TIME OF WAR.
>> WELL, NICOLLE, I THINK THIS
IS EXTRAORDINARILY DANGEROUS.
WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MOST
CONSEQUENTIAL WAR IN 80 YEARS
AND WHAT THE NATO ALLIANCE AND
THE UNITED STATES ARE TRYING TO
DO ARE WALK A FINE LINE TO
SUPPORT UKRAINE AND DEFENDING
AGAINST THIS DAILY RUSSIAN
ATROCITIES AS PART OF THIS WAR,
WHILE AT THE SAME TIME NOT
ALLOWING THAT TO ESCALATE INTO A
CONVENTIONAL WAR WENT NATO AND
RUSSIA, LET ALONE A NUCLEAR WAR
BETWEEN NATO AND RUSSIA.
AND WHAT IS WORKED IN A COUNTRY
CONTEXT FOR DECADES AND DECADES
AND DECADES THROUGHOUT THE COLD
WAR WAS AN UNDERSTANDING THAT
THERE WAS A UNIFIED FRONT BY THE
UNITED STATES, BY THE REST OF
NATO, THAT IF SOMETHING WERE TO
ESCALATE, IT WOULD BE MET BY A
STRONG RESPONSE IN A UNIFIED
WAY.
AND WHAT RUSSIA ALWAYS SOUGHT
THROUGH INTELLIGENCE AND
DIPLOMATS WERE INFORMATION ABOUT
WHAT NATO AND THE WEST WOULD DO
WERE THEY TO CROSS OR ENGAGE IN
CERTAIN ACTIVITIES AND BECAUSE
OF TRUMP SAYING THINGS LIKE THIS
AND ASKING FOR AID AFTER
ACKNOWLEDGING THAT PUTIN WAS NOT
A FAN OF THE WEST AND HE SHOULD
DO THIS, TRUMP HIMSELF, THE
POTENTIALLY PRESUMPTION NOMINEE
IF YOU CHOOSES TO RUN IN 2024 IS
SIGNALING TO RUSSIA THAT THERE
IS NOT A UNITED FRONT, THAT
THERE IS SOME AMBIGUITY OF HOW
THE WEST MIGHT RESPOND AND THAT
AMBIGUITY IN THE CONTEXT OF A
LARGE CONVENTIONAL WAR IS
EXTRAORDINARILY DANGEROUS.
IT SENDS DANGEROUS CONFLICTING
SIGNALS TO RUSSIA'S INTELLIGENCE
AGENCIES AND TO THE DIPLOMATS AN
TO THE PROPAGANDA CHANNELS AS
YOU KNOW THAT PUTIN WATCHES AND
IT BRINGS US IN A -- INTO A MUCH
MORE DANGEROUS ENVIRONMENT THAN
WE OTHER WISE WOULD ALREADY BE
FACING.
>> PETE, UNDERSTANDING PUTIN'S
RELIANCE ON DISINFORMATION AND
SORT OF CHERRY PICKING HIS
INPUTS, YOU COULD IMAGINE A
SCENARIO WHERE HE'S NOT
LISTENING TO HIS OWN ADVISERS
BECAUSE HE SEES THESE VERY
POWERFUL, VERY ADVISABLE
AMERICAN VOICERS LIKE TUCKER
CARLSON AND DONALD TRUMP HAVE
HIS BACK?
>> WELL I THINK THAT IS VERY
LIKELY THE CASE.
THERE IS A LOT OF REPORTING FROM
DIFFERENT SOURCES THAT PUTIN'S
INFORMATION FLOW IS LIMITED TO
PUTIN BOTH BECAUSE HE'S IN A
BUBBLE OF ADVISERS AND PEOPLE
THAT HE WILL SPEAK TO ARE
ALREADY LIMITED AND THAT
SECONDLY A LOT OF THOSE
INDIVIDUALS ARE VERY FEARFUL TO
GIVE HIM INFORMATION THAT MIGHT
CONFLICT WITH WHAT HE WANTS TO
BELIEVE OR THAT WILL ANGER HIM.
AND SO IN THAT COBNTEXT, HAVING
PEOPLE LIKE TRUMP SAY THINGS
LIKE THIS, HAVING THE ABILITY OF
STATEMENTS BY TRUMP, BY TUCKER
CARLSON AND BEING SHOWN ON THOSE
TRUE RUSSIAN CONTROLLED STATE
MEDIA OUTLETS THAT HE DOES
WATCH, ADDS TO THAT AMBIGUITY.
SO YOU HAVE A NUMBER OF DANGERS
HERE.
IT IS DANGEROUS BECAUSE IT GIVES
PUTIN THE WRONG IDEA OF THE
UNITED STATES POSTURE TOWARD
RUSSIA AND IT IS DANGEROUS
BECAUSE IT PRESENTED A FALSE
NARRATIVE TO THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE
THROUGH THE STATE CONTROLLED
MEDIA AND FINALLY IT IS DAMAGING
BECAUSE IT COULD BE USED BY
RUSSIANS RECOGNIZING THAT THERE
IS SOME SPLIT WITHIN THE
AMERICAN SOCIETY OF PEOPLE WHO
BELIEVE AND SUPPORT WHAT TRUMP
IS SAYING AND PEOPLE WHO DON'T.
>> WHICH WOULD ALSO, BEN RHODES,
BE DISINFORMATION.
I MEAN AN NBC POLL CONDUCTED
THIS WEEK SHOWS THAT JUST 1% OF
AMERICANS HAVE A POSITIVE VIEW
OF PUTIN.
SO THE STRATEGIC MISCALCULATION
OF THINKING THAT AMERICA IS
DIVIDED ON THE QUESTION OF
WHETHER OR NOT WE'RE END OF
VLADIMIR PUTIN IS DISINFORMATION
ON ITS FACE.
1% OF AMERICANS LIKE HIM.
AND 88% HAVE A NEGATIVE VIEW OF
VLADIMIR PUTIN BUT THAT IS NOT
THE IMPRESSION WHEN YOU WATCH
THE MOST HIGHLY RATED PROGRAM ON
FOX NEWS.
>> YEAH, I MEAN THERE ARE A
COUPLE OF THINGS.
NICOLLE, THE FIRST IS THAT
PUTIN'S AIMS ARE NOT TO MAKE US
LIKE HIM.
IT IS TO DIVIDE AMERICANS.
THE RUSSIAN DISINFORMATION
CAMPAIGNS AND HE WANT TO SOW
DIVISION AND CHAOS AND TO STAND
UP RUSSIAN AGGRESSION SO WE
SHOULDN'T BE MISLED BY BAD
POLLING.
HE COULD STILL MEET HIS
OBJECTIVES IF HE'S SOWING THIS
KIND OF CHAOS AND HE'S ABLE TO
COMMUNICATE TO HIS PEOPLE, THE
FUTURE OR POSSIBLE PRESIDENT OF
THE UNITED STATES, FEELS LIKE
I'M THE ONE DOING HIM FAVORS.
THAT IS REINFORCING HIS POSITION
AT HOME AND PRESENTING THAT A
UNITED STATES IS NOT STANDING UP
WITH A UNITED FRONT.
AND THE SECOND THING THERE IS
THIS IS AN AWKWARD REALITY THAT
THERE ARE FELLOW TRAVELERS.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT TUCKER CARLSON
AND DONALD TRUMP AND I POINT TO
VICTOR ORBAN, HE IS THE VANGUARD
OF THIS RIGHT-WING TREND IN THE
WEST.
HE'S BEEN A BUDDY OF PUTINS.
HE WAS OVER THERE BEFORE THE WAR
AND AN OUT LIAR ON SANCTIONS
WITHIN THE EUROPEAN UNION AND
NATO.
ENDORSED BY DONALD TRUMP.
TUCKER CARLSON HAS FLOWN OUT TO
TO DO SHOWS IN BUDAPEST.
THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THE
IDEOLOGY THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN
THAT REPRESENTS THAT DOES FIND
FELLOW TRAVELERS AND VERY
POWERFUL VOICES ON THE AMERICAN
RIGHT AND IT IS NOT ENOUGH FOR
PEOPLE LIKE LINDSEY GRAHAM TO
SAY THEY DON'T AGREE WITH THAT
COMMENT.
DONALD TRUMP IS A DE FACTO
LEADER OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY
AND UNLESS AND UNTIL REPUBLICANS
RENOUNCE THAT AND CUT TIES WITH
THIS GARBAGE, NOT ONLY IS IT
GOING TO SERVICE AS RUSSIAN
DISINFORMATION, IT IS GOING TO
ALLOW THAT IDEOLOGY TO GAIN END
ROADS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES
WHERE IT HAS NO PLACE IN A
BATTLE BETWEEN DEMOCRACY AND
AUTOCRACY.
WE BETTER GET ON THE RIGHT SIDE
OF THAT BATTLE.
>> I MEAN, BEN RHODES, DO WE
TALK ABOUT THAT AS THOUGH IT IS
AN OPEN QUESTION.
THE PARTIES PICK SIDES IN THAT
BATTLE DIDN'T WE HAVE ALL BUT
TWO REPUBLICANS ON THE SIDE OF
OVERTURNING AN AMERICAN ELECTION
RESULT THAT A LIFE LONG
REPUBLICAN SAID WAS THE MOST
SECURE IN OUR HISTORY.
HASN'T THAT QUESTION BEEN
ANSWERED ALREADY?
>> I THINK IT HAS.
AND HERE IS THE PROBLEM,
NICOLLE.
A LOT OF REPUBLICANS WILL SAY
LOOK AT HOW WE RESPONDED TO THIS
INVASION.
WE'VE NOT ECHOED TRUMP'S LINE.
WE'VE STOOD UP TO VLADIMIR PUTIN
AND BACK PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.
SURE, BUT WHAT ARE THEY DOING TO
DO WHEN DONALD TRUMP IS THE
POTENTIAL NOMINEE OF THE PARTY?
WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO WHEN
THEIR ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT
WHETHER OR NOT THEY'LL SUPPORT
DONALD TRUMP.
THAT IS WHEN THEY RUN FOR THE
HILLS AND THAT IS NOT GOING TO
CUT IT.
THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
YOU CAN'T SAY THAT YOU'RE ON THE
SIDE OF THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE,
THAT YOU'RE AGAINST THE
ATROCITIES THAT WE'RE SEEING IN
MARIUPOL AND REFERRING TO
SOMEONE WHO IS THE DE FACTO FOR
YOUR PARTY THAT IS PROVIDING
VLADIMIR PUTIN AND GETTING ON
TUCKER CARLSON TO SPEAK TO THE
BASE WHEN YOU'RE GOING ON A SHOW
THAT AIRS ON RUSSIAN TELEVISION
BECAUSE IT IS SUCH EFFECTIVE
PROPAGANDA FOR THE RUSSIAN
GOVERNMENT.
IT IS NOT FLUFF TO SAY YOU'RE
AGAINST PUTIN IF YOU ALSO FALL
IN LINE WITH THE LIKES OF DONALD
TRUMP AND TUCKER CARLSON AND
THAT IS THE CRISIS THAT