THE METOO MOVEMENT HAS SEEN MORE AND MORE PEOPLE SPEAKING UP
ABOUT SEXUAL HARASSMENT AND ASSAULT BUT A RECENT STUDY FROM
THE MASSACHUSETTS CENTER FOR EQUITY FOUND TWO-THIRD OF
EMPLOYEES WHO REPORT WORKPLACE SEXUAL HARASSMENT FACE
RETALIATION FROM THEIR EMPLOYERS.
I SPOKE WITH THE REPORT'S AUTHORS IN THE STUDIO.
>> IT'S PARTICULARLY INTERESTED TO ME IN MY WORK, I'M INTERESTED
IN GENDER AND LABOR OUTCOMES WITHIN WITH THE METOO, MOVEMENT
IT WAS RELEVANT.
IT IS IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THE PEOPLE
FILING THESE CHARGES AND GOING THROUGH THIS PROCESS.
THERE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE PROCESS AVAILABLE TO THEM AND
PART OF WHAT THE FINDINGS WERE, IS THAT NEARLY TWO-THIRDS OF
EMPLOYEES THAT REPORT WORKPLACE SEXUAL HARASSMENT FACE SOME FORM
OF RETALIATION FROM THEIR EMPLOYER WHICH IS AN UNFORTUNATE
FINDING, I WOULD THINK.
WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU FOUND THAT'S WHAT THE DATA LEAD
YOU TO.
>> I THINK WE WERE PRETTY SHOCKED.
WHEN WE FOLLOWED UP ON THAT, WE FOUND THAT ALMOST AS MANY LOST
THEIR JOBS AND SO THERE'S A KIND OF PATTERN OF RETALIATION THAT
SEEMS TO BE INTEGRAL TO WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE WHO COMPLAIN
ABOUT SEXUAL HARASSMENT.
>> SO FOR YOU, SOMEONE WHO STUDIES THE LAW, TEACHES THE
LAW, THE LAW PROTECTS PEOPLE FROM THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOUR,
DOESN'T IT?
>> YES.
SO TO ME, THE IMPORTANCE OF THE STUDY IS TO UNDERSCORE THE
IMPORTANCE OF THOSE LEGAL PROTECTIONS AGAINST RETALIATION
IN THE WORKPLACE.
BUT IT ALSO REMINDS US THAT WHEN THOSE PROTECTIONS ONLY EXIST ON
PAPER OR IN THEORY, AND THEY'RE DIFFICULT TO ENFORCE, THEN
THEY'RE NOT DOING THE WORK THEY SHOULD.
>> LET'S DIG DEEPER INTO THE FINDINGS OF YOUR REPORT.
SO WHAT YOUR REPORT SAYS THAT EMPLOYEES WHO FILE SEXUAL
HARASSMENT COMPLAINTS, 65% LOST THEIR JOBS IN A YEAR HAVING MADE
THIS COMPLAINT AND 68% WERE RETALIATED AGAINST BY THEIR
EMPLOYER IN SOME SHAPE OR FORM.
HOW DID YOU REACT TO THIS?
>> SO ONE OF THE THINGS WE FOUND IS, ALSO, THAT THE VAST MAJORITY
OF PEOPLE WHO EXPERIENCE SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN WORKPLACES DO NOT
EVER FILE IS CHARGE.
AND I THINK IT HELPS US MAKE SENSE OF THAT, THAT THE COST OF
FILING A CHARGE IS VERY HIGH.
>> BECAUSE THEY MIGHT KNOW THEIR COLLEAGUE SPOKE UP, SAID XWY OR
Z LOST THEIR JOB OR DIS-CRIME NATED
DISCRIMINATED IN SOME WAY?
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
AND THE EMPLOYER'S LAWYERS TEND
TO USE A FAIRLY AGGRESSIVE APPROACH TO EMPLOYEES AND THAT
INCLUDES THINGS LIKE RETALIATION AND JOB LOSS AND IT'S NOT
NECESSARILY ABOUT THAT EMPLOYEE, BUT ABOUT SENDING A MESSAGE TO
THE OTHER EMPLOYEES.
>> MEANING, GO AHEAD?
>> THIS JUST REMINDS ME OF CASES I READ THAT CASES THAT WORKED
THEIR WAY OUT OF THE EEOC AND OUT OF THE COURT SYSTEM.
>> EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.
>> YES, BECAUSE THE LAW ALLOWS PLAINTIFFS WHO ARE SATISFIED OR
WANT TO CONTINUE TO PRESS CLAIMS IN COURT TO DO THAT IF THEY'VE
SORT OF GONE THROUGH THE EEOC PROCESS.
AND THERE HAVE BEEN EXAMPLES OF HIGH PROFILE CASES WHERE
PLAINTIFFS HAVE WON JURY AWARDS IN RETALIATION CASES.
IN FACT, LARGE JURY AWARD.
I'M THINKING PARTICULARLY OF SOME CASES THAT I'VE LOOKED AT.
I STUDY PRIMARILY ATHLETICS AND EDUCATION SO I'VE LOOKED AT
CASES INVOLVING COACHES WHO HAVE LOST THEIR JOBS.
BUT THE THING THAT MAKES THOSE CASES UNIQUE IS THE HIGH
SALARIES THAT THOSE PARTICULAR PLAINTIFFS EARN AND THE
CREDIBILITY OF THEIR RETALIATION CLAIMS.
TO THOSE CLAIMS HAVE BEEN HELPFUL TO SORT OF EXPOSE THE
UNDERLYING SEXUAL HARASSMENT THAT OFTEN DOESN'T RECEIVE THE
SAME KIND OF REMEDY IN COURT, BUT KIND OF COMES TO LIGHT
THROUGH THE VEHICLE OF THESE RETALIATION CASES.
>> AM I CORRECT, OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, $24,000 WAS ABOUT THE
AMOUNT THAT PEOPLE WERE RECEIVING IN YOUR REPORT.
IS THAT WHAT YOU FOUND?
>> THAT WAS THE AVERAGE MONETARY BENEFIT OF THOSE WHO RECEIVED A
MONETARY BENEFIT THROUGH THIS PROCESS.
THE AMOUNT WAS EVEN LOWER, SO THOUSAND DOLLARS.
>> IMPORTANTLY, ONLY A QUARTER RECEIVE ANYTHING AT ALL.
>> OF THOSE WHO FILE, RIGHT?
OF THOSE WHO FILE, RIGHT.
SO THE THE 1% GET A BIG PAYDAD THE 1% IS $10,000.
THERE'S RESEARCH THAT PEOPLE GO TO THE PRIVATE BAR AND THE
OVERALL PATTERN HERE, WHETHER IT'S THROUGH THE EEOC OR IN THE
COURTS IS YOU MIGHT GET SOMETHING LIKE 10,000 OR
$20,000, BUT PROBABLY WON'T, BUT YOU PROBABLY WILL LOSE YOUR JOB.
>> AND IS THERE ANY RECOURSE FOR THE EMPLOYEE TO TURN BACK TO THE
EMPLOYER OTHER THAN THESE CASES THEY COULD FILE?
BUT ARE THERE LEGAL AVENUES FOR THE EMPLOYEE TO SAY, OK, NOW THE
EMPLOYER NEEDS TO SET UP PROGRAM X, Y OR Z SO THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN
AGAIN?
>> WE'RE NOT SEEING WIDE-SPREAD EVIDENCE THAT THOSE REMEDIES ARE
SUCCESSFUL.
SO I THINK IT'S A LEGITIMATE CONCERN THAT THE EVIDENCE
GETTING OUT THERE MIGHT DETER PLAINTIFFS FROM COMING FORWARD
IF THEY FEEL LIKE THE EFFORTS WOULD BE FUTILE.
BUT I THINK NEVERTHELESS, IT'S IMPORTANT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
THIS SO WE UNDERSTAND THESE ARE THE LIMITATIONS OF LAW AND THAT
WE CAN ADDRESS STRUCTURAL CHANGES TO IMPROVE THE JUSTICE.
SO WHEN PLAINTIFFS GET OUT OF THE EEOC AND GET INTO COURT, YOU
KNOW, THEN WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME SET OF NUMBERS.
NOT THAT GOING TO COURT IS ALWAYS A HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL
ROUTE.
BUT THERE IS MORE TO BE DONE THAN JUST ACCEPTING THE RESULT
OF THE EEOC PROCESS.
>> IS THERE A CHANGE THROUGH THIS RESEARCH, ARE YOU READING
THE REPORT THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE OR ADVOCATE FOR?
>> AS DONNA MENTIONED EARLIER, WE SAW A NEED FOR EMPLOYERS TO
TAKE MORE RESPONSIBILITY RATHER THAN LEAVING IT UP TO PEOPLE WHO
PURSUE DISCRIMINATION TO PURSUE THIS ON THEIR OWN.
WE FOUND ONLY 11% OF THESE CASES SEE CHANGE IN THE WORKPLACE, SO
A CHANGE IN THE WORKPLACE PRACTICES OR STRUCTURE AND WE
WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT INCREASE.
>> IN ADDITION TO THAT, WHEN THINGS GO WRONG IN WORKPLACES,
MOST OF THE TIME IT'S TREATED AS A MANAGERIAL PERSON.
A JOB IS TO STEP IN AND SOLVE THIS PROBLEM.
HERE, I THINK WHAT HAPPENS IS THERE'S A REDIRECT TO STEP OUT
OF THE PROBLEM AND TO REDEFINE IT AS NOT A MANAGE PROBLEM OR A
PROBLEM OF THE WORKPLACE BUT SOMETHING THAT SET A SEGMENT TO
THE LAW, KIND OF A LEGAL THREAT.
>> SORT OF IN THAT VEIN, ARE THERE INDUSTRIES OR STATES THAT
THIS IS MORE PERVASIVE?
DID YOUR FINDINGS SHOW ANYTHING THERE?
>> WE DO SHOW THERE'S A LOT OF VARIATION ACROSS STATES IN THE
CHARGING RATES AND THERE'S ALSO A VARIATION ACROSS STATES IN THE
DEGREE TO WHICH PEOPLE HAVE MADE SEXUAL HARASSMENT CHARGES GET
REMEDIES.
WE DON'T HAVE A REALLY GOOD EXPLAINS
EXPLANATIONS OF WHY.
LAST WEEK I WAS AT THE EEOC AND THEY WERE JUST SHOCKED TO LEARN
IT THEMSELVES.
>> WOW!
>> SO I DO THINK WE HAVE A LOT MORE TO DO TO FIGURE OUT WHERE
THEIR LEGAL REMEDIES ARE MORE EFFECTIVE AND WHERE EMPLOYERS'S
RETALIATION IS MORE EXTREME.
>> AT THIS POINT, IS THERE ANY ONE INDUSTRY YOU CAN POINT TO
DOING PARTICULARLY WELL OR PARTICULARLY POORLY IN THIS
AREA?
>> I THINK OUR FINDINGS SUPPORT PREVIOUS RESEARCH THAT SHOW MORE
MALE DOMINATED OR AGGRESSIVE INDUSTRIES TEND TO PRODUCE
HIGHER SEXUAL HARASSMENT RATES ESPECIALLY FOR WOMEN.
>> WOMEN STOOD OUT IN THE FINDINGS 47%?
THAT'S THE PERCENTAGE OF LABOR FORCE WOMEN MAKE UP BUT THEN 81%
FILE CLAIMS ACCORDING TO YOUR REPORT FINDINGS.
>> 81% OF CLAIMS, THAT'S RIGHT.
SPECIFICALLY IN TERMS OF INDUSTRIES, MALE DOMINATED,
CONSTRUCTION AND MINING HAVE HIGH LEVELS OF HARASSMENT
CLAIMS.
OTHERS LIKE PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION, GOVERNMENT
EMPLOYMENT MUCH LESS, INTERESTINGLY, THE HIGHEST
SEXUAL HARASSMENT CLAIM RATE FOR MEN COMES FROM SCHOOLS, FROM
EDUCATION.
>> AND THAT TENDS TO BE MORE FEMALE DOMINATED?
>> IS THAT FAMILIAR?
>> NO, THAT'S INTERESTING.
I MEAN, IT'S NOT TERRIBLY SURPRISING IN LIGHT OF WHAT WE
KNOW ABOUT SEXUAL HARASSMENT AND THE ROLE IT PLAYS IN SOCIETY.
IT'S NOT ABOUT SEXUAL ATTRACTION.
IT'S ABOUT POWER AND IT'S ABOUT PRESERVING THE POWER THAT YOU
HAVE.
SO IN MALE-DOMINATED INDUSTRIES, IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT THIS
WOULD BE WHERE THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT
WOULD OCCUR AND SO, IT'S INTERESTING TO LEARN THAT THE
REVERSE IS TRUE, THE FLIP SIDE.
>> THE BASIC ASSOCIATION IS WAY STRONGER FOR MALE DOMINATED THAN
IT IS FOR, LIKE, PROPORTIONED WOMEN IN AN INDUSTRY.
>> AND RACE, AS WELL.
YOU REPORTED AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN ACCOUNT FOR 7% OF THE
WORKFORCE BUT FILE 27% OF THOSE SEXUAL HARASSMENT CLAIMS.
>> IT'S HARD TO EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHAT THAT IS.
OUR INTUITION IS THAT IT'S ABOUT EXACTLY THESE POWER ISSUES.
THE LESS POWERFUL PEOPLE ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE HARASSED AND
TREATED POORLY AND IN THAT SENSE, SEXUAL HARASSMENT IS A
FORM OF KIND OF A MORE GENERAL CULTURE OF DISRESPECT, RIGHT,
WITH SPECIFICALLY SEXUAL CONTENT.
SO THAT'S LIKELY TO BE WHAT'S GOING ON.
IT'S ALSO THE CASE THAT THERE'S A KIND OF INTERSECTIONAL PROCESS
AROUND DIS-CRIM DISCRIMINA.
PEOPLE ARE NOT SIMPLY DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BECAUSE
THEY'RE WOMEN.
BECAUSE AT THE SAME TIME, THEY HAVE A RACE OR OCCUPATION THAT'S
MORE OR LESS POWERFUL IN THE WORKPLACE.
AND SO PART OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IS THAT BLACK WOMEN EXPERIENCE
MORE DISCRIMINATION THAN WHITE WOMEN AND SO THEY HAVE MORE
BASES BY WHICH TO BE AGGRIEVED IN THE WORKPLACE.