>>> GOOD EVENING, A FEDERAL
JUDGE TODAY ORDERED "THE NEW
YORK TIMES" TO SUSPEND
TEMPORARILY A PUBLICATION OF THE
SERIES OF REPORTS BASED ON THE
SECRET PENTAGON STUDY ON HOW THE
UNITED STATES BECAME INVOLVED IN
THE VIETNAMESE WAR.
THE ORDER WILL REMAIN IN EFFECT
UNTIL SATURDAY AFTERNOON AT
1:00.
JUDGE MURRAY FINDS THAT IN
TEMPORARY HARM RESULTING FROM
THE SUSPENSION WILL BE LESS THAN
THE IRREPARABLE HARM THAT COULD
BE DONE TO THE INTEREST OF THE
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
THE JUDGE SCHEDULED A HEARING ON
A POSSIBLE PERMANENT INJUNCTION
FOR FRIDAY MORNING.
>> Reporter: WOW.
THAT WAS AN "NBC NIGHTLY NEWS"
REPORT FROM JUNE 15th, 1971, ON
THE COURT ORDER TO SUSPEND
PUBLICATION OF THE PENTAGON
PAPERS.
THAT COURT CASE WAS LATER
DECIDED IN FAVOR OF THE "NEW
YORK TIMES" AND "THE WASHINGTON
POST" AND THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT
FREEDOMS.
YESTERDAY WAS THE 50th
ANNIVERSARY OF "THE TIMES"
PUBLISHING ITS FIRST ARTICLE IN
THE SERIES.
THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENTS SECRET
STUDY OF THE UNITED STATES ROLE
IN VIETNAM.
KURT ANDERSON JOINS US NOW.
HE IS AUTHOR OF THE BEST-SELLING
BOOK, EVIL GENIUSES, AND HOST OF
THE A NEW PODCAST OUT TODAY
ENTITLED, NIXON AT WAR.
ALSO WITH US, HISTORIAN AND
ROGERS CHAIR IN THE AMERICAN
PRESIDENCY AT VANDERBILT
UNIVERSITY, JON MEACHAM.
AND WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF FOR
"USA TODAY," SUSAN PAGE.
EUGENE ROBERTSON AND RICHARD
HAASS ARE STILL WITH US, AS
WELL.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING
WITH US.
JON MEACHAM, FIRST OF ALL, TALK
ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF THE
PENTAGON PAPERS IN U.S. HISTORY.
TALK ABOUT THE FIRSTS, ALL OF
THE FIRSTS THAT THE AMERICAN
PRESIDENCY AND THE PRESS
EXPERIENCED 50 YEARS AGO.
>> IN A LOT OF WAYS, THE
DISTRUST IN GOVERNMENT, THE
SENSE THAT THERE IS A DEEP STATE
WORKING AGAINST THE INTEREST OF
COMMON PEOPLE, A VERY POPULOUS
TROPE, FINDS A FULL EXPRESSION
IN THE PENTAGON PAPERS.
YOU HAD A GOVERNMENT COMMISSION
STUDY ABOUT HOW THE VARIOUS
ADMINISTRATIONS HAD ESSENTIALLY
MISLED US, AT EVERY POINT,
THROUGH THAT WORK.
IT WAS PUBLISHED IN 1971.
I THINK THAT WAS THE SAME
WEEKEND AS TRICIA COXS WEDDING.
SO NIXON WAS DISTRACTED, BUT NOT
TOO DISTRACTED.
TO BECOME -- AND HE LASHED OUT
IN REACTION TO THE LEAK, WHICH
EXACERBATED THE CONDITIONS OF
WATERGATE, WHICH IN TURN HELPED
CREATE THE SUSPICION OF
GOVERNMENT.
AND SO, I THINK, ONE OTHER
THING, FOR THE HOME TEAM, TO
SOME EXTENT, ITS ALSO KIND OF
THE COMING OF AGE OF KATHERINE
GRAHAM AND BEN BRADLEY AT "THE
WASHINGTON POST."
"THE TIMES" FOLLOWS THE
INJUNCTION, GENES HOME BASE
STEPS IN.
AND THEY OBTAIN THEIR SET.
THEY PUBLISH, AN INCREDIBLY
BRAVE MOMENT FOR "THE WASHINGTON
POST."
AND HELPED ALL THEY DID.
AND OF COURSE, WE KNOW WHAT
HAPPENED OVER THE NEXT THREE
YEARS WITH "THE WASHINGTON
POST," BECAUSE OF THE FALL OF
NIXON.
SO YOU HAVE THIS MOMENT -- KBD.
>> GO AHEAD, JOHN, IM SORRY, WE
HAVE A DELAY.
GO AHEAD.
>> JUST, REAL QUICK, SO, YOU
KNOW, THERE WAS SOME CONSPIRACY
THEORIES THAT ENDURE AFTER PEARL
HARBOR.
BUT THEY DIDNT -- THEYRE ON
THE RIGHT WING IN THE FEVER
SWAMPS.
THE PENTAGON PAPERS THE
DIFFERENT AND VIETNAM IS
DIFFERENT, BECAUSE IN SOME CASE,
ITS A RESPECTABLE CONSPIRACY
THEORY, IF THAT MAKES SENSE.
IT IS A CASE WHERE THE
GOVERNMENT MISLED US.
AND SO THERES A HEALTHY
DISTRUST OF GOVERNMENT.
OF COURSE, WHAT WERE LIVING
THROUGH NOW, THATS BEEN TAKEN
TO A DELETERIOUS DEGREE.
>> YOU KNOW, ITS SO
INTERESTING, YOU TALK ABOUT HOW
THIS IS WHERE A LOT OF THE
DISTRUST IN OUR LEADERS CAME
FROM, THIS SORT OF DEEP STATE
CONSPIRACY.
I REMEMBER AFTER WATCHING KEN
BURNS DOCUMENTARY ON VIETNAM,
LOOKING AT IT AND ACTUALLY
SAYING, EVEN THOUGH IT WASNT
HIS INTENT, LOOKING THROUGH IT
AND GOING, MY GOD, THIS REALLY
DID LEAD TO THE RISE OF PEOPLE
LIKE TRUMP.
AND LEAD TO WHERE WE ARE NOW,
EVEN 50 YEARS LATER.
KURT ANDERSON, YOUR PODCAST
PROVIDES THIS SEVEN-PART SERIES,
ITS SORT OF A FLY ON THE
WALL-TYPE LOOK AT THE PENTAGON
PAPERS AND THIS CRISIS, THIS
POLITICAL AND JOURNALISTIC
CRISIS UNFOLDING.
AND YOU EVEN HAVE
NEVER-BEFORE-HEARD CLIPS,
INCLUDING ONE THAT IM
FASCINATING TO HEAR.
ONE FROM THE NIXON FROST TAPES.
>> YEAH, WE DO.
AND ITS REALLY ABOUT NIXONS
HANDLING OF VIETNAM.
HIS EXTENSION OF THE WAR.
HE WAS ELECTED, OF COURSE, TO BE
THE TOUGH-MINDED GUY WHO WOULD
FINISH IT, QUICKLY.
HE DIDNT.
HE EXTENDED IT AND EXTENDED IT
AND EXTENDED IT.
AND FINALLY, WHEN HE KNEW HE WAS
GOING TO LOSE OR THE UNITED
STATES WAS GOING TO LOSE SAID,
WELL, JUST HAVE GOT TO MAKE SURE
THE COMMUNISTS DONT WIN BEFORE
NOVEMBER 72.
HE WAS ABOUT TO GO TO CHINA AND
VIETNAM WAS JUST A DISTRACTION.
WHEN THE PENTAGON PAPERS CAME
OUT, WHICH BY THE WAY, WASNT
BAD FOR HIM.
IT WAS ABOUT THE KENNEDY AND
JOHNSON ADMINISTRATIONS AND
HENRY KISSINGER AND NIXON AT WAR
COMING AND SAYING, MR.
PRESIDENT, THIS ISNT GOING TO
HURT YOU, THIS ISNT GOING TO
HURT US, THIS IS BAD FOR THE
DEMOCRATS.
BUT IT SORT OF TRIGGERED NIXONS
PARANOIA, WHICH WAS A
LONG-STANDING FEATURE OF RICHARD
NIXON, TO GO NUTS.
TO BECOME THE WATERGATE
GANGSTER.
TO THIS WEEK, 50 YEARS AGO,
ORDER A BREAK-IN OF THE
BROOKINGS INSTITUTION, THE
LIBERAL THINK TANK IN
WASHINGTON.
ORDER IT ON TAPE AND ORDER IT
AGAIN, AS THE SUPREME COURT WAS
ABOUT TO HEAR THE PENTAGON
PAPERS CASE.
THIS IS THE MOMENT, AND THEN
THIS SUMMER OF 71, WHEN HE WEPT
WENT OFF THE RAILS.
AND PART OF IT WAS THAT HE WAS
HIDING HIS OWN SECRETS, THAT WE
TALK ABOUT IN NIXON AT WAR OF
HOW HE, AS HE WAS RUNNING FOR
PRESIDENT, DID ALL OF THESE
ILLEGAL SHENANIGANS TO MEETSS UP
LYNDON JOHNSONS PEACE TALKSES
AND NOT LET HUBERT HUMPHREY HAVE
A WIN.
I DIDNT FULLY REALIZE HOW
DEEPLY INTERTWINED VIETNAM AND
WATERGATE WERE.
AND ITS ALL OF A PIECE.
AND ITS JUST A PART OF THE
AMERICAN TRAGEDY, AS JOHN AND
YOU HAVE BEEN SAYING, ABOUT THE
UNDERMINING OF AMERICAN
SOLIDARITY AND FAITH IN
GOVERNMENT AND ALL THE REST.
BUT IT WAS -- IT WASNT TWO
THINGS.
VIETNAMS NIXONS HANDLING OF
IT.
AND WERE STILL LIVING WITH THE
CONSEQUENCES.
DONALD TRUMP.
THE SILENT MAJORITY -- THE WAY
THAT NIXON PITCHED HIMSELF AS
THE MAN OF THE REGULAR PEOPLE
AGAINST THE --
>> I THINK KURT FROZE.
WELL GET KURT BACK.
SUSAN PAGE, IN THE PENTAGON
PAPERS AND A GREAT POINT WAS
MADE, THIS REALLY WASNT JUST
ABOUT RICHARD NIXON.
IN FACT, IT REALLY WAS VERY
DAMNING TOWARDS LBG AND EVEN
KENNEDY.
AND I TALK ABOUT THE KEN BURNS
DOCUMENTARY.
BUT YOU LOOK AT ALL OF THIS
MATERIAL AND SEE JOHN KENNEDY
BEFORE BEING SNATDASSASSINATED
SAYING, THEY HATE US OVER THERE,
THERES NO WAY I CAN WIN THAT
WAR, BUT I CANT GET OUT OF IT
UNTIL AFTER THE ELECTION.
LBJ REALIZING VERY EARLY IN THE
WHITE HOUSE, THAT THERE WAS NO
WAY THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD
EVER SUCCEED IN VIETNAM.
BUT HE DIDNT WANT TO BE THE
PRESIDENT THAT WAS SEEN AS
LOSING THE WAR.
AND SO, HERE YOU HAVE THREE
PRESIDENTS, ONE WHO HAD MILITARY
ADVISERS OVER THERE, KNOWING IT
WAS NEVER GOING TO WORK, BUT
KEPT THEM OVER THERE.
ONE THAT STARTED THE HOT WAR.
AND ONE WHO CLAIMED TO FINISH
THAT WAR.
ALL THREE OF THEM LIED TO THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE WHEN THEY KNEW
THERE WAS LITTLE-TO-NO CHANCE OF
SUCCESS.
>> AND YOU KNOW, THE PENTAGON
PAPERS WERE IMPORTANT, NOT ONLY
BECAUSE OF WHAT WE LEARNED ABOUT
THE PRESIDENT, AS YOU JUST
MENTIONED, BUT ITS WHAT WE
LEARNED ABOUT THE POWER AND THE
AUTHORITY OF THE PRESS TO
EXAMINE ITS GOVERNMENT.
THIS WAS A CRUCIAL COURT CASE
AFFIRMING THE RIGHT AND THE
APPROPRIATENESS OF REPORTERS TO
USE SECRET SOURCES TO EXAMINE
WHAT THEIR GOVERNMENT WAS DOING
IN THE NAME OF THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE.
AND LETS NOT FORGET THE COURAGE
OF THE JOURNALISTS WHO WERE
INVOLVED IN THIS.
DANIEL ELLSBERG TRIED TO GET THE
PENTAGON PAPERS OUT USING A
MEMBER OF CONGRESS.
HE COULDNT FIND ONE.
HE WENT TO JOURNALISTS A TO THE
"NEW YORK TIMES," LATER JOINED
BY "THE WASHINGTON POST," AND
THE JOURNALISTS INVOLVED IN THIS
UNDERSTOOD THAT IT WAS POSSIBLE
THAT THEY COULD FACE LEGAL
CONSEQUENCES, EVEN CRIMINAL
CONVICTIONS.
IT WASNT CLEAR UNTIL THE
SUPREME COURT RULED THAT THE
RIGHT OF THE PRESS TO DO THIS
WAS AFFIRMED.
AND THESE ARE, OF COURSE,
DEBATES THAT WE CONTINUE TO HAVE
TODAY, AS WE LOOK AT THE LEAK
INVESTIGATIONS, THAT THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE JUST IN
THE PAST FEW YEARS.
THINGS WERE JUST BEGINNING TO
LEARN ABOUT.
>> GENE, TALK ABOUT THE COMING
OF AGE OF "THE WASHINGTON POST,"
OF BEN BRADLEY, OF KATHERINE
GRAHAM HAVING TO CALL THE SHOTS,
MAKING THAT DECISION, THAT SHE
KNEW PUT YOUR NEWSPAPER, THEN
HER NEWSPAPER, ON THE FRONT LINE
OF HISTORY.
>> I MEAN, IT WAS INCREDIBLY
BRAVE.
I DID HEAR FROM FRIENDS AND
COLLEAGUES AT "THE NEW YORK
TIMES" AFTER STOOECHBLEVEN SPIEL
FILM "THE POST" CAME OUT THAT
KIND OF DIMINISHES "THE NEW YORK
TIMES" ROLE IN INITIALLY
PUBLISHING THE PENTAGON PAPERS.
THEY WERE FIRST.
BUT "THE POST," AT A MOMENT WHEN
IT WAS CLEAR THAT IF YOU -- THAT
IF YOU PUBLISHED, THERE WAS
GOING TO BE TROUBLE.
THAT NIXON WAS GOING TO COME
AFTER YOU IN A MAJOR WAY.
AND THAT -- KATHERINE GRAHAM
COULD HAVE LOST THE NEWSPAPER,
LITERALLY, IN THE FALLOUT FROM
PUBLISHING.
AND SHE AND BEN BRADLEY AND
HOWARD SIMMONS AND OTHERS OF
THAT GREATEST "WASHINGTON POST"
GENERATION MADE THE DECISION TO
GO AHEAD, THE BRAVE DECISION TO
GO AHEAD, WHICH WAS ULTIMATELY
VINDICATE
VINDICATED.
AND REMEMBER THE CONTEXT, TOO,
IN WHICH THIS WAS HAPPENING.
THE DEMONSTRATIONS AGAINST THE
VIETNAM WAR.
ON A SCALE AND OF A KIND THAT WE
HAVENT REALLY SEEN SINCE.
I MEAN, WEVE HAD A LOT OF