UNIVERSITY OF TENNESSEE HEALTH
SCIENCE CENTER IN MEMPHIS.
WE APPRECIATE YOUR WORDS THIS
MORNING.
>>> WE TURN NOW FROM THE RESULTS
OF VACCINE DISINFORMATION TO ITS
ORIGINS
ORIGINS.
NEW REPORTING FOR THE "NEW YORK
TIMES" IS SHEDDING A LIGHT ON
PEOPLE ACTUALLY GETTING PAID TO
SPREAD MISINFORMATION ONLINE.
READING FROM THE REPORT, QUOTE,
IN MAY, SEVERAL FRENCH AND
GERMAN SOCIAL MEDIA INFLUENCERS
RECEIVED A STRANGE PROPOSAL.
A LONDON-BASED PUBLIC RELATIONS AGENCY, FAZZE, WANTED TO PAY
AGENCY, FAZZE, WANTED TO PAY
THEM TO PROMOTE FALSEHOODS
TARRING PFIZERS VACCINE.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT SUCH
MISINFORMATION EXISTS.
SOME RECIPIENTS POSTED
SCREENSHOTS OF THE OFFER.
EXPOSED, FAZZE SCRUBBED ITS
SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNTS.
THAT SAME WEEK, BRAZILIAN AND
INDIAN INFLUENCERS POSTED VIDEOS
ECHOING FAZZES SCRIPT TO
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF
VIEWERS.
THE SCHEME APPEARS TO BE PART OF
A SECRETIVE INDUSTRY THAT
SECURITY ANALYSTS SAY IS
EXPLODING IN SCALE,
DISINFORMATION FOR HIRE.
FIRMS ARE SELLING SERVICES ONCE
CONNECTED PRINCIPALLY BY
INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES.
THEY SOW DISCORD, MEDDLE IN
ELECTIONS, SEIZE FALSE
NARRATIVES AND PUSH VIRAL
CONSPIRACIES MOSTLY ON SOCIAL
MEDIA.
AND THEY OFFER CLIENTS SOMETHING
PRECIOUS: DENIABILITY.
JOINING US NOW, COLUMNIST FOR
THE "NEW YORK TIMES," MAX
FISHER.
ALSO WITH US, FORMER FBI SPECIAL
AGENT AND MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR
CLINT WATTS.
>> MAX, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
BEING WITH US.
THERE WAS SOMETHING WHEN I WAS
READING AN ARTICLE THAT STUCK
OUT TO ME THAT SEEMED TO BE
DIFFERENT.
YOUVE HEARD THE STORY OF
SOMEBODY ON FACEBOOK THAT WILL
POST SOMETHING ABOUT THEIR
FAVORITE BAND AND WILL GET 12
LIKES.
THEN THEY LEARN IF THEY POST
DISINFORMATION, SAY CRAZY
THINGS, THEYLL GET ABOUT 2,000
LIKES.
WE ALL UNDERSTAND THAT
INCENTIVE.
WE UNDERSTAND THE INCENTIVE OF
POLITICIANS EVEN IF WE DISAGREE
WITH IT, SOWING DISINFORMATION
DURING POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS ABOUT
THE PARTY.
WHAT I DONT UNDERSTAND IS WHO
IS PAYING FOR DISINFORMATION
ABOUT VACCINES WHEN WERE, MY
GOD, IN BETWEEN PRESIDENTIAL
ELECTIONS?
WHATS THE PURPOSE OF THIS?
WHO IS BENEFITING FROM THIS SORT
OF DISINFORMATION FOR HIRE?
>> SO IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE,
IT LOOKS LIKE THE BENEFITS IS
THE MAKER OF RUSSIAS
CORONAVIRUS VACCINE, BUT ITS
ALSO POSSIBLE THERE WERE SOME
OTHER CRIME INHERENT IN THIS
WORK.
THATS WHATS SCARY, IS WE CAN
GUESS WHO SEEMS TO BENEFIT FROM
IT.
REALLY, ANYONE WITH 10,000,
20,000, 30,000 BUCKS AND A DARK
WEB ACCOUNT CAN HAVE THEIR OWN
KIND OF RUSSIA MEDDLING IN THE
DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN TO
ADVANCE WHATEVER AGENDA THEY
WANT.
>> SO YOU COULD HAVE DARK MONEY,
DARK WEB ACCOUNT AND DO THIS,
AND LOCAL MAYORS RACES DO IT,
STATE LEGISLATURE, THEY DO IT
EVERYWHERE.
READING THIS ARTICLE, OBVIOUSLY
I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE
CONCERNED THAT WHAT WEVE SEEN
IN 2016 AND BEYOND IS ONLY GOING
TO GET WORSE.
WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?
IS THERE ANY WAY TO POLICE THIS?
>> ITS REALLY HARD TO POLICE IT
BECAUSE ITS SO HARD TO TRACK
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE.
AND SOME OF THESE FIRMS ARE --
ONE OF THE FIRMS RESPONSIBLE WAS
A BIG, GLOSSY, D.C. LOBBYING
FIRM.
SO IN THAT CASE, WHEN THE WORK
GOT EXPOSED, THEY GOT
EMBARRASSED, THEY BACKED AWAY
FROM THIS CAMPAIGN WHERE THEY
WERE SPREADING DISINFORMATION ON
BEHALF OF RIGHT WING POLITICIANS
IN LATIN AMERICA.
BUT BECAUSE A LOT OF IT IS
BASICALLY E-MAIL SPAMMERS THAT
ARE BASED IN CROATIA OR RUSSIA
OR BASED IN BRAZIL, IT IS
ACTUALLY REALLY, REALLY HARD TO
PUT A STOP TO IT.
AND THE PLATFORMS, THEYRE
PLAYING A REALLY IMPRESSIVE
LEADING ROLE IN ROOTING OUT
THESE CAMPAIGNS AND IDENTIFYING
IT AND EXPOSING IT, AND I THINK
FACEBOOK AND TWITTER ESPECIALLY
DESERVE A LOT OF CREDIT FOR IT.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME THEYVE
ALSO CREATED PLATFORMS THAT ARE
DESIGNED IN SUCH A WAY, LIKE YOU
SAID, BY MAXIMIZING ENGAGEMENT,
BY REALLY ENCOURAGING CONFLICT
DIVISIVENESS AND CONSPIRACIES
THAT MAKES IT SO EASY FOR ANYONE
WITH A LITTLE BIT OF MONEY AND A
DARK WEB ACCOUNT TO SET ONE OF
THESE UP.
>> CLINT, ELISE JORDAN HERE.
IM CONFUSED A BIT.
IS THIS SOMEWHAT LIKE STATE
ACTORS OR ROGUE ACTORS TAKING
INFLUENCE OPERATIONS AND
MUTATING THEM AND DOING IT WITH
ABSOLUTELY NO HOLDS BARRED?
>> THATS RIGHT,S ELISE.
IT IS THE WILD WEST.
IN 2019 WHEN I TALKED ABOUT
RUSSIA DISINFORMATION, I TALKED
TO STAFF AFTERWARDS.
THE CONCLUSION WAS IF CONGRESS
DOESNT CREATE SOME RULES, IT
WILL ONLY BE A MATTER OF MONTHS
WHERE EVERYONE IS ACQUIRING AND
BUYING THESE SERVICES FOR THEIR
POLITICAL CHASMAMPAIGNS, FOR THE
SOCIAL CAMPAIGNS, FOR ANY SOCIAL
OLIGARCH.
IF YOU LOOK AROUND THE WORLD,
THERE IS ONLY TWO THAT CAN DO
THIS.
RUSSIA AND CHINA INVEST IN
DISINFORMATION ON SCALE, BUT
ITS A BOOMING MARKET.
YOU SEE EVERYBODY JUMPING INTO
THIS.
IT TAKES A LITTLE BIT OF A BIT
BITCOIN AND CONVERSATIONS AND
YOU CAN BE UP AND ROLLING.
I TALKED TO ONE OF THE VACCINE
MAKERS AND THEY TOLD US, WERE
TOLD THERE ARE THREE FIRMS DOING
THIS WORK.
ONE IN NEW YORK, TWO IN LONDON
AND WE DONT KNOW WHERE THE
OTHER ONE IS.
I WOULD SAY MY RESEARCH TEAMS
AFTER MANY YEARS OF TRACKING
NATION STATES, ONE OF THE ONES
WE TRACKED WORK FOR DIFFERENT
MEMBERS, DIFFERENT POLITICAL
CAMPAIGNS, AND YOU BUMP INTO
THEM SOMETIMES AND THEY WILL
WORK ON BOTH SIDES OF AN ISSUE.
THEY MAY BE TROLLING FOR ONE
POLITICIAN ONE DAY.
THEY MAY BE WORKING FOR A
COMPANY WITH THE EXACT OPPOSITE
THE NEXT DAY.
>> MAX, TELL ME ABOUT THE 2018
CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA SCANDAL AND
HOW THAT WAS REALLY THE GENESIS
OF A LOT OF THIS WORK.
>> YEAH, EXACTLY. SO CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA WAS THIS
SO CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA WAS THIS
PRIVATE PR FIRM THAT WAS IN
CONVERSATION WITH SOME OF DONALD
TRUMPS CAMPAIGN AND THEY USED
THE MEDIA TO TARGET CERTAIN
MEMBERS FOR BIG SENTIMENT.
THIS WAS A BIG SCANDAL FOR TO TH
SOCIAL MEDIA MARKETING FOR
POLITICAL CAUSES THAT IS MADE TO
LOOK LIKE ORGANIC ACTIVITY ON
SOCIAL NETWORKS IS RELATIVELY
CHEAP TO DO, AND CAN BE VERY
LUCRATIVE AND VERY EFFECTIVE,
BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT THESE
PLATFORMS ARE SET UP.
SO YOU SAW THIS EXPLOSION OF
FIRMS SUDDENLY GETTING INTO THIS
WORK, SOME OF WHICH ARE
SOPHISTICATED AND SOME OF WHICH
ARE BASICALLY EMAIL SPAMMERS
THAT SAW THAT THIS IS A WAY TO
MAKE A LITTLE BIT MORE BUCK AND
AT THE SAME TIME, AT THE OTHER
END, YOU HAVE ALL OF THESE
GOVERNMENTS AROUND THE WORLD
THAT SAW WHAT RUSSIA DID IN THE
2016 ELECTION AND THOUGHT THAT
WAS PRETTY GOOD, BUT LIKE SAID
WE DONT HAVE THE KNOW-HOW OR
DONT WANT TO TAKE THE HEAT
AFTER MOSCOW GOT PEGGED FOR
THIS.
WELL GO TO A PRIVATE FIRMS THAT
WILL OFFER US A DEGREE OF
DENIABILITY AND BRING US THE
TECHNICAL KNOW-HOW AND
POLITICIANS GETTING INTO IT, A
GUY RUNNING FOR A MAYORS RACE
IN A SMALL TOWN CAN GO TO THE
FIRMS AND RUN DISINFORMATION
AGAINST HIS OPPONENT BECAUSE
ITS CHEAP AND EASY TO DO.