♪ MY LONELY DAYS ARE OVER ♪ AND LIFE IS LIKE A SONG, WHOO ♪
>> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY, WE'RE HERE WITH PRESIDENT BARACK
OBAMA, DISCUSSING HIS PRESIDENCY AND HIS NEW BOOK, "A PROMISED
LAND."
YOU WRITE ABOUT A TRIP TO EGYPT AND SEEING AN ANCIENT
HIEROGLYPHIC, A PAINTING OR DRAWING ON THE WALL OF A TOMB
THAT ONE OF YOUR STAFFERS SAYS, BOY, THAT REALLY LOOKS LIKE YOU.
YOU SAW IT AND IMAGINED THE LIFE OF THE MAN IN THE ETCHING AND
SAID ALL OF IT IS FORGOT B NOW, NONE OF IT MATTERED, THE
PHARAOH, SLAVE, VANDAL ALL TURNED TO DUST, JUST LIKE EVERY
SPEECH I DELIVERED, LAW I PASSED AND DECISION I MADE WOULD SOON
BE FORGOTTEN JUST AS I AND ALL THOSE I LOVE WOULD SOME DAY TURN
TO DUST.
ARE YOU OKAY?
BECAUSE IF I SAW THAT IN THE DIARY OF A 13-YEAR-OLD GIRL, I
WOULD GO, WE'RE GOING TO GET YOU SOME HELP.
>> LOOK, YOU KNOW, I SHOULD POINT OUT THAT THAT IS IN THE
SAME CHAPTER THAT THEN ENDS IN NORMANDY, AND I GUESS PART OF
WHAT THAT CHAPTER IS ABOUT IS, YOU KNOW, PART OF HOW TO
MAINTAIN YOUR STEADY STATE IN THIS HIGH-PRESSURED JOB, FOR ME,
AT LEAST, WAS TO TAKE THE LONG VIEW AND TO REMIND YOURSELF,
LOOK, THERE ARE GOING TO BE UPS AND DOWNS, THERE ARE POLL
NUMBERS, SOMEBODY IS AGGRAVATING YOU, YOU LOST A VOTE ON THIS,
THAT OR THE OTHER, AND JUST REMINDING YOURSELVES THAT, IN
THE SWEEP OF HISTORY, THIS IS NOT TRAGIC, WHAT'S HAPPENING
RIGHT NOW.
THERE ARE BIGGER THINGS THAT MATTER.
BUT YOU HAVE TO KEEP THAT IN MIND, YOU KNOW, THE FACT THAT IT
ALL TURNS TO DUST, WITH THIS OTHER POINT OF VIEW, WHICH IS,
WITHIN THE TIME FRAME OF HUMAN HISTORY THAT AT LEAST WE CAN
COMPREHEND, ACTUALLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING DOES MATTER, AND YOU HAVE
TO KIND OF MAINTAIN THOSE TWO IDEAS AT THE SAME TIME.
IF YOU UNDERSTAND THE MAGNITUDE OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING EVERY
SINGLE MOMENT, THEN YOU'RE GOING TO BE PARALYZED.
SO OCCASIONALLY, YOU HAVE TO PULL BACK AND SAY, LOOK, YOU DO
YOUR BEST AND YOU WILL BE OKAY.
BUT THEN YOU ALSO HAVE TO SAY, MAN, THIS COUNTS, YOU KNOW,
PEOPLE'S LIVES ARE SAVED, SOMEBODY'S GOING TO GET
HEALTHCARE, SOME CHILD'S GOING TO GET EDUCATION.
YOU KNOW, IF YOU MAKE THIS STEP INSTEAD OF THAT STEP, MAYBE, YOU
KNOW, THIS COUNTRY DOESN'T DESCEND INTO CONFLICT AND CIVIL
WAR, YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE MISTAKES, THERE ARE GOING TO BE
UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES, YOU HAVE TO TRY ANYWAY.
>> Stephen: WHEN YOU BECAME PRESIDENT, HOW QUICK DID YOU
LOOK BACK AT SENATOR BARACK OBAMA AND SAY THAT GUY DOESN'T
KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT, THAT GUY NEEDS A TALKING TO?
>> YEAH, THERE WERE A COUPLE OF TIMES WHERE YOU, PARTICULARLY
AROUND COUNTERTERRORISM ISSUES, WHERE I THINK IT IS DIFFERENT
WHEN YOU'RE ON THE SIDELINES THAN WHEN YOU ARE IN THE SEAT
AND YOU ARE SEEING COMING THROUGH THE TRANSOM JUST A
SERIES OF CLEAR, ACTIONABLE INTELLIGENCE INDICATING THAT
SOME ATTACK MIGHT BE TAKING PLACE, AND YOUR OVERRIDING
CONCERN ABOUT MAKING SURE THE COUNTRY IS SAFE, HOW YOU BALANCE
THAT CONCERN WITH CIVIL LIBERTIES ISSUES, WITH THEY
CANNING SURE THAT YOU ARE -- WITH MAKING SURE THAT YOU ARE
FOLLOWING THE LAW, THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS FOR ME THAT WERE
CLEAR, BRIGHT-LINE RULES, WE DON'T TORTURE, WE DON'T
INDEFINITELY HOLD PEOPLE, BUT THERE WERE OTHER ISSUES WHERE,
AS A SENATOR, MY ATTITUDE WAS, YOU KNOW, VERY HARD-NOSED, YOU
KNOW, WE SHOULDN'T BE DOING THIS, WE SHOULDN'T BE DOING THAT
AND THEN, WHEN YOU'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF IT, YOU'RE THINKING,
OKAY, BUT I REALLY DON'T WANT THIS PERSON TO BLOW UP A SUBWAY,
HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THAT.
>> Stephen: WOULD YOU PUT THE DRONE PROGRAM INTO THE THING
THAT YOUR SENATOR BARACK OBAMA DID NOT UNDERSTAND AS WELL AS
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA BECAUSE THAT IS SOMETHING YOU GOT A LOT
OF CRITICISM OVER.
>> THE DRONE PROGRAM I DEAL MORE IN THE SECOND VOLUME BECAUSE
WHAT I ACTUALLY DISCOVERED WAS THAT THE CONCERNS WERE BOTH
LEGITIMATE BUT NOT ALWAYS UNDERSTOOD.
THE PROBLEM WITH THE DRONE PROGRAM WAS NOT THAT IT CAUSED
AN INORDINATE AMOUNT OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES, ALTHOUGH EVEN ONE
CIVILIAN CASUALTY IS TRAGIC, BUT IT ACTUALLY, THE DRONES PROBABLY
HAD LESS COLLATERAL DAMAGE, WHICH IS THE ANTISEPTIC WAY OF
SAYING IT KILLED PEOPLE WHO WERE INNOCENT AND NOT JUST TARGETS,
PROBABLY HAD FEWER -- LESS COLLATERAL DAMAGE THAN IF YOU
SEND IN TROOPS, FOR EXAMPLE, AND YOU'RE IN A FIREFIGHT, OR YOU'RE
DROPPING ORDINATES USING CONVENTIONAL PILOTS.
THE PROBLEM IS IT STARTS GIVING YOU THE ILLUSION THAT IT'S NOT
WAR.
>> Stephen: THE DISTANCE MAKES IT STERILE.
>> YES, AND WHAT I DISCOVERED, AND I WRITE ABOUT THIS IN THE
SECOND VOLUME, THE MACHINERY OF IT STARTED BECOMING TOO EASY,
AND I HAD TO ACTUALLY IMPOSE INTERNALLY A SUBSTANTIAL SET OF
REFORMS IN THE PROCESS TO STEP BACK AND REFINEDMIND EVERYONE
IN-- AND REMIND EVERYONE INVOLVED THIS ISN'T TARGET
PRACTICE.
EACH TIME WE MAKE THIS DECISION, WE ARE ENGAGED IN THE MOST
PROFOUND ACT THAT ANY GOVERNMENT CAN TAKE, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW,
USING LETHAL FORCE AGAINST PEOPLE, AND THERE HAVE TO BE
BETTER CHECKS AND BALANCES IN DOING IT.
>> Stephen: YOU HAVE A FAMOUSLY UNLEAKY WHITE HOUSE, NO
DRAMA OBAMA AND NO LEAKS IN THIS WHITE HOUSE.
I'VE SPOKEN TO FORMER STAFF MEMBERS OF YOURS WHO SAID THERE
WERE HEATED DEBATES OVER THE USE OF THE DRONES.
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: AND I SAID, HOW COME WE DIDN'T HEAR ABOUT THIS?
LIKE, FOR THOSE OUT HERE WHO DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THIS USE OF
EXECUTIVE POWER -- >> RIGHT.
>> Stephen: -- A LITTLE LEAK ON THOSE HEATED DEBATES WOULD
HAVE HELPFUL FOR US TO UNDERSTAND THE THINKING THAT
WENT INTO THIS.
>> THAT'S PART OF WHAT I MEAN ABOUT THE IMBALANCE WHERE SO
MUCH OF FOREIGN POLICY AND MILITARY POLICY IS NOW ENTIRELY
HOUSED IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, THAT CONGRESS GENERALLY IS --
AND THIS IS TRUE FOR BOTH SIDES --
>> Stephen: YOU MEAN BOTH SIDES OF THE POLITICAL AISLE?
>> BOTH SIDES OF THE POLITICAL AYE AISLE, THERE'S A TENDENCY
AMONG MEMBERS OF CONGRESS TO SAY WE'LL LET THE PRESIDENT MAKE A
FOREIGN POLICY DECISION AND WE'LL SEE DID IT WORK OR NOT AND
WEIGH IN BASED ON HOW ITS -- >> Stephen: WE'LL KEEP OUR
POWDER DREW BUT NOT AGAINST OUR ENEMY, MAYBE OUR POLITICAL
ENEMIES.
>> YEAH.
AND SOME OF THIS IS INEVITABLE.
IT'S ONE OF THE CHALLENGES OF THESE TERRORIST NETWORKS IS THAT
THEY HAVE -- BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT STATE ACTORS, YOU DON'T KNOW --
YOU DON'T HAVE A CLEAR VICTORY, YOU DON'T HAVE McARTHUR AND AN
ARMISTICE.
SO YOU HAD THE ENTIRE APPARATUS OF SECURITY THAT'S GROWN UP THAT
IS SOMEWHAT PERPETUAL, AND I THINK ONE OF THE BIG JOBS I HAD
WAS TO TRY TO, FIRST OF ALL, NOT MKE THAT THE END-ALL AND BE-ALL
OF OUR FOREIGN POLICY, TO TRY TO CREATE LEGAL STRUCTURES AROUND
IT, AND I THINK THAT I WAS SUCCESSFUL IN A LOT OF RESPECTS,
BUT THERE ARE SOME AREAS, LIKE CLOSING GUANTANAMO, THAT I
COULDN'T GET IT DONE.
>> Stephen: IT WAS MOVES IN PLACE THAT COULDN'T BE UNDONE?
>> I WAS SURPRISED AS COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF I COULD NOT
SHUT DOWN A FACILITY THAT WAS BOTH UNNECESSARY AND, IN MY
VIEW, CONTRARY TO OUR LEGAL TRADITIONS.
>> Stephen: DID YOU EVER ASK FOR INFORMATION AND THEY SAID WE
CAN'T TELL YOU?
>> NO, BUT I WILL TELL YOU THAT THERE WERE TIMES WHEN I ASKED
FOR INFORMATION AND IT CAME SLOWER THAN I WANTED.
>> Stephen: WHEN YOU SAY, GET ME THE DECLARATION OF
INDEPENDENCE, LEMON JUICE AND A BLOW DRYER AND WE'RE GOING TO
NICOLAS CAGE THIS BOY AND FIND A TREASURE MAP ON THE BACK.
>> THERE ARE TIMES WHEN PRYING INFORMATION OUT OF THE BOWELS
OVERAN AGENCY CAN BE CHALLENGING.
>> Stephen: U.F.O.s DID YOU ASK ABOUT THAT?
>> CERTAINLY ASKED ABOUT IT.
CAN'T TELL YOU ABOUT IT.
>> Stephen: IF YOU WOULD SAY THERE ARE NONE, THERE ARE NONE.
YOU JUST 100% SHOWED YOUR CARDS.
>> FEEL FREE TO THINK THAT.
>> Stephen: I DO.
IT MAKES ME HAPPY TO THINK YOU WON'T TELL ME ABOUT U.F.O.s.
>> CAN I SAY IT USED TO BE U.F.O.s, ROZ ROSWELL WAS THE
BIGGEST CONSPIRACY, AND NOW THAT'S TAME TO THINK THE
GOVERNMENT MIGHT HAVE AN ALIEN SPACE SHIP.
>> Stephen: NOW THE BIGGEST CONSPIRACY IS PEOPLE IN MICHIGAN
VOTE.
TAKING A BREAK.
BACK WITH MORE OF PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA.