a question that all of us are asked on
the council from time to time in
different parts of the world is this you
claim to be the gospel coalition why
have you included in your statement of
faith and Theological vision of ministry
a clause that is specifically several
clauses that are explicitly
complementarian why must the gospel be
tied to a complementarian confessional
stance why not open it up as we've
opened it up to let's say a diversity of
opinion on baptism or some other issues
forms of church government why not on
this issue in 25 words or less yeah
that's unfair that you get to ask the
question maybe I should collect could we
go back to start and I ask the question
I I think I would ordinarily I do get
asked this all the time myself and I
would say no I don't believe I don't
believe anyone here in the gospel
coalition feels that your understanding
of the gender roles and the role of
women directly is part of the gospel and
I think that means for example if I'm
sharing the gospel with somebody I'm not
talking about that in fact even if I
start to talk to people about well if I
become a Christian they say what will
that mean to how I live I'm not going to
talk about it even at that point because
that would certainly muddy the waters
and give people the impression that what
it means become a Christian is to is to
adopt these various position so directly
no it is not a gospel issue because I
don't have to tell people about this in
order to teach the gospel but but on the
other hand it's we think it's indirectly
affects the way we understand the
scripture and that understa way in which
we understand the gospel so i would say
i would say i haven't seen this in all
cases but most of us in the gospel
coalition feel that many people in order
to make room for an egalitarian position
have to do something with the way in
which they read scripture that so i
would put this way it loosens it loosens
your understanding of how you understand
the force of scriptural teaching
and there are plenty I say of people who
loosen it only there and then they're
tight they keep it tight everywhere else
but some people it loosens across the
board so we would say there's a number
of things in our in our statements their
theological statement our philosophy of
ministry statement that aren't directly
involved with the heart of what it means
to teach the gospel but we think our
entailments they they are associated
with people who believe in gospel
doctrine rather than direct causes so I
wouldn't say if your compliments airing
that causes you to believe the gospel
but we think that there's there's a
loose Association of a way of reading
the scripture that brings you to a
complimentary conclusion and a wave
reading the script that same way of
reading Scripture helps you understand
you know the what the gospel what the
Bible's teaching on the gospel is too so
it's an indirect relationship I don't
know and you all may not agree with me
with that those terms with us how I've
been explaining it when John you and I
have talked about this on other
occasions at great length where where
we've talked about how complement
arianism is in some ways a microcosm of
the much bigger issue of men and women
and family and structure why don't you
share some of that was yeah I think we
know we needed to find complement
Arianism because frankly as I hear it's
talked about they they dumped all the
old traditional baggage into it and the
galit Arians have good news we are bad
news that's not the case compliments
Arianism means God created male and
female different and he designed roles
for which they are gloriously suited not
simply biologically but in their very
personhood and disposition and demeanor
as male and female in marriage it means
men will be sacrificial taking
responsibility leaders that most women
love they flourished when a man is a
humble godly spiritual leader as head
and she as submitting endorser of that
leadership in the church it means the
elders of the church distinct from the
Deacons have the governing and
Jean role and thus also exert that kind
of spiritual humble christ-like when
these things are being done in a
beautiful way which is what
complementary means we want to rescue
the old abuses into something beautiful
so that the dance really is a beautiful
ballet to watch between a man and woman
so that's that's what we mean by
complement complement arianism must not
be confused with traditionalism right
and at the risk of becoming a book
peddler there's a new book out by a
friend of mine in australia called god's
good design which has got your thought
exactly right it's by claire smith and
will be very helpful to many people so
it would be one thing to talk to you
about why it's a good thing to be
accompanying but the question
specifically is why gospel coalition and
my answer is is threefold one of the
gospel coalition wants to say things
that protect the gospel put safeguards
around it this is one of them we can
talk about why the gospel once coalition
wants to say things that display the
gospel and we can talk about that and
the third is we want to say things that
release the gospel for maximum human
flourishing and I think under each of
those there are reasons why complement
arianism does that so to pick up on on
the one you raised we live in a culture
where for the last 30 or 40 years the
collapse of the meaning of biblical
masculinity has not produced a beautiful
egalitarian society it has produced a
brutal masculine society because I heard
dr. Moore also more say this few weeks
ago at the gospel together for the
gospel he said if you leave men sinful
men untaught about what godly humble
leadership is they don't default to
galat Aryan kindness they default to
passivity which flares up in moments of
rate or brutality and it's a confusion
of masculinity throughout our culture
that also is relating to the whole
homosexual thing the abuse of women the
neglect of children the absent fathers
this issue is simply huge when it comes
to the flourishing of what what culture
is and when we were over in Europe just
a few weeks ago and they were saying
it's not the same here I said you just
haven't you haven't gone where we've
gone as a culture in thinking through
what happens when father's disappear
what happens when men become hostile and
they don't have any vision men are wired
to lead they'll lead badly or they'll
lead godly in humble ways which is why
merely talking about galit Arianism 5050
doesn't doesn't work i read recently a
woman's description of why she loved the
masculinity of her husband and when i
was done there wasn't a single thing
said that couldn't have been said about
a woman that's a mistake that's a
mistake we do it all the time we think
we're saying things about masculinity
when we're saying humility and kindness
and generosity and respect I think
that's just godly humaneness what is it
about manhood the last thing I'd say on
this point is I need an answer we the
church needs an answer for what you say
to an eight-year-old boy or girl who
asked his mommy mommy what does it mean
to grow up and be a man and not a woman
not a woman not just a man just don't
talk to me at generic human virtues tell
me what it means to be a man and not a
woman or the girl mommy was it mean to
grow up and be a woman and not a man
egalitarians can't answer it I've never
heard them answer my question just what
are you going to say to this
eight-year-old boy about what is
distinct about masculinity that's not
true of godly femininity what do you say
when people ask why we put complement
Arianism in the gospel coalition
doctrinal statements well the kinds of
things that John and you have said I say
both of those things I think there are
other factors as well that is and that
includes for example in any doctrinal
statement in part you focus on certain
things precisely because they are issues
in your time in your society so there
were times when Baptists and paid Oh
Baptists were very impatient with each
other and and could could not have
fellowship with one in fact the paino
Baptist managed to drown a few Baptist
as I recall but that's another part of
church history at the moment that that's
not the issue that we're primarily
dividing over we can disagree about it
but it's not the issue that is
addressing our culture quite so strongly
this issue is crucial in part because
there are so many people denying it or
taking it apart or destroying it and the
outflow in our society not least in our
inner cities is so huge that not to say
something about it in a confessional
statement and a vision of ministry is
simply irresponsible you there are so
many things that that flow out of it
which is part of what you were saying
John that not to deal with it in our
culture is is simply not on it's it's
it's ducking what is is you're just too
close to the heartbeat of what's wrong
with our culture picking up on your
Herman new t'kul argument that's where
you started that's probably where we'd
all start their trajectories
hermeneutical trajectories when you
handle first Timothy 213 in a way as to
dodge that or even worse when you handle
Ephesians 5 in a way that dodges
headship and submission you are handling
the Bible in a way that bodes ill for
gospel texts so that's the hermeneutic
lager I would say that that culturally
and this is really offensive okay so
I've said anyway culturally if you
aren't willing to stand against the tide
on this issue you're probably going to
cave on some other important ones that
may be closer to the gospel this is
there is a there is an issue of the kind
of person who is willing to take the
hits I mean to be called obscene to be
called a sexist who doesn't give a rip
about justice for women can you can you
stand in those return good for evil and
keep giving a positive vision to your
church that's a kind of person that I
think is is showing there they're not
that way if they just if they
wife from this issue so there's besides
the her medical issue there's this
there's this courage issue that I think
bodes ill for standing on on other
issues that's right we're often using
hermeneutics today as a way of
sidestepping what scripture
unambiguously repeatedly and clearly
says by trying to locate the rationale
in some alleged reconstruction of the
background of 1st Timothy or whatever it
is instead of listening to what the
scripture actually says in its own terms
and that is finally I want to say it
carefully because I I don't mean to be
cruel to those who disagree with me but
it's it's finally not listening to what
God says to to these people will I look
those of our contrite spirit and who
tremble at my word this does not feel
like trembling at the Word of God it
feels like ways of domesticating it and
that on the long haul has massive
repercussions down the road I think it's
that serious now there's I think to two
ways actually that that the Gospel
Coalition in the way in which we talk
about this and of course we're we're not
in we're a pretty large group so I'm not
saying but I think I perceive this on
the part of most of us that there's a
way of talking about complement arianism
in a gracious way you I began by saying
that we I think at the gospel coalition
do not necessary exactly specifically
how the principle of male headship plays
out there we go out of our way to say
it's possible that beef for example your
ecclesiology with where you have
actually we're someplace here's you've
got elders other places you don't have
elders parts of the world you say Paul
is forbidding authority women having
authorities forbidding something he's
talking about headship how that plays
out I usually say inside of your
marriage depending on the temperament
and personality of the people how it
plays out in particular cultures how it
plays out in different ecclesiology will
look somewhat different and that's the
reason why we can't pull all our
understanding of what it means that
means is the
husband headship means the husband
controls the checkbook and we have not
done that we have not poured all that in
sometimes we've been character chart as
if we did but we actually are saying
here's what the Bible says and it leaves
a lot of specifics up to time and place
the other thing is I hope our attitude
took people to disagree with us if we're
really a gospel coalition I do think
that there's a there's a tendency for
people on both sides of divide to treat
the it to disdain you know Henry this
place where Henry the fifth actually
says even though we're going through as
a Shakespeare course or even though
we're going through the French
countryside conquering them I will not
have the French upgraded with disdainful
language you know he said IEC you're not
going to do that I do not want you
verbally to be talking into Stanfill
waste these people even though we're
conquering them and i'm hoping the
Gospel Coalition will go with that and
we will not I'm sure that there's both
complement areas and the altairians who
very often do upgrade the other side
with very disdainful language and I
think that we can't do that and that to
me means we're gospel complement Arians
yes to which I'd also want to add what
you said about not providing a whole set
of rules the two things that John
mentioned are right that is the Bible
makes a distinction enroll in the home
you know the Bible makes a distinction
enroll in the church recognized teaching
authority over men and how that plays
out in a variety of different cultures
we can live with all kinds of diversity
but it seems to me that those two things
are pretty non-negotiable in the text
and instead of being quiet over them we
should be rejoicing over them as part of
God's good design this is for the good
of men and women and at the end of the
day that man-woman relationship in
marriage is tied in Scripture to Christ
and the church and and Yahweh and Israel
and ultimately to the marriage supper of
the Lamb and so on these things are tied
together not merely at the horizontal
sociological level but are tied to
massive movement so that ultimately were
to think of apostasy is a kind of
spiritual adultery which says something
both about apostasy and adult
and and and and so far there's just so
many things that tie together so
strongly in this that if we miss this
one we begin to unravel a whole lot of
other things even if it's only by
keeping silent about them but but when a
whole culture is running in a certain
direction if we remain silent about them
we are finally on however unwittingly
acquiescing and that's why it really is
important for the coalition to stand up
to directions that are just so dangerous
and so painfully unbiblical in so many
levels it might be worth it to say one
other thing about the practice of trying
to be both handle this I've seen it done
in colleges I've seen it done in
churches and and in groups and what
happens is egalitarianism deep wins by
default because as soon as you try to be
both in the advocates in the group
church or school will say well it's time
to have a woman preach and the others
say but we don't think that's right well
you just have to tolerate that and once
you've done that the group is an
egalitarian group it's it's saying we
will now feature this act of
disobedience and offend the conscience
is of the others you it's not the kind
of thing where we don't force anybody to
do infant baptism at a conference
whereas if that pressure were on us to
have women authoritative Lee teaching
men because that's fair then you've
already given the house away it doesn't
work practically to try to have a gospel
renewal Reformation movement like this
be above and movement