i'm nathan rich aka
wong today there was a live debate
between cgtn's leosine
and fox businesses tracy regan about
china trade it was much hyped especially
here in china
but how did it go how did it really go
[Music]
if you're familiar with debate
techniques time network programs in
america
and chinese politics then you'll have a
good idea of how this debate went
but without a cultural understanding of
americans you may have missed some of
the nuance
leosine is a senior host and journalist
here in china
at a tv station called cgtn cgtn is
basically
a state-run english language tv station
here in china
trish reagan is an author and host in
america
on the fox business network a murdoch
family run
tv station the on-air debate grew out of
earlier back and forth and definitely
hinted at
misunderstandings between cultures
lucine essentially called out tricia's
program for being
inflammatory when talking about china
and the trade war
and today they finally got a chance to
meet each other on air
let's see what happened she's the host
of a prime time
english language television program
overseen by the ccp
the chinese communist party see how her
eyes light up when she says the word
communist
she knows how our viewers will think she
knows that communism is one of the
boogey men that fox goes after every
week
she knows exactly how leosine will be
perceived
all she needs to do is frame the
conversation in a particular way
let's see if you can spot how she does
it i know she and i may not agree on
everything
an opportunity to hear a very different
view as these trade negotiations stall
out
it's helpful to know how the chinese
communist party is thinking about trade
so here she's smiling and remarking
matter of factly that they likely won't
agree on everything
but that this is a unique opportunity to
hear a different view
and before her viewers can wonder why
they would want to hear any different
views
she loudly emphasizes the words trade
negotiations
to remind them of why what she's
signaling to her viewers is that even
though these people might be our enemy
at some level
we need to talk to them because of trade
negotiations that's the message
now in the interest of transparency i
should explain that i don't speak for
anyone but myself
as the host of a fox business show my
guest however
is part of the ccp and that's fine as i
said
i welcome different perspectives on this
show
but it's this next part that really
makes obvious the agenda here
she says in the interest of transparency
that she only speaks for herself
as a host of a fox business network show
and then she says these three magic
words
my guest however is part of the ccp
then assures that's fine and that she
welcomes different perspectives on this
show
my guest however is a magic combination
of words let me show you how it works
imagine i was a host and i said the
following
i don't hate puppies my guest however
is a member of a pro cat club called
catlife
that's fine i welcome different
perspectives on this show
see what i did there i just told you
that my guest hates puppies
without directly saying it trish just
told us that she is
transparent because she works for the
murdoch family
but leucine is not transparent because
she's
part of the ccp she's saying that
leucine will lie to us because she's
part of the chinese government
that's her message the attack has
already begun
let's see how leosine begins thank you
trish thank you trish for having me it's
a great
opportunity for me unprecedented i never
dreamed
that i would have this kind of kind of
opportunity to speak to you and to speak
to
many audiences in ordinary households in
the united states
okay this is embarrassing i see this a
lot with people who don't interact with
americans very much
leo is talking to trish as if trish were
a chinese lady
she started this discussion the way that
makes sense in
china formerly humbling oneself and
making a big deal about the other
entity being great you know i'm really
happy to be here
you're amazing etc this is absolutely
normal respectful and appropriate
in china the problem is fox isn't
broadcasting to china it's broadcasting
to america
and the message lucien just sent out
especially after the attack intro from
trish
is not going to have the effect that she
thinks it will
the message she just sent out roughly
translates to this
i am undeserving of this conversation
because i am not important or
qualified enough to be having it you are
much better than me and i would not be
here except
you want me to be sounds extreme but
honestly a lot of that message is being
transmitted
unwittingly definitely a bad bad start
she should have just started immediately
with thanks trish nice to be here
listen blah blah blah blah i am not a
member of the communist party of china
please don't assume that i'm a member
and i don't speak for
the communist party of china and i'm
here for today
i'm only speaking for myself as lucien a
journalist working for cttn
then leosian says that she's not a
member of the communist party of china
this is a fairly important point but
since she's a bit unaware of how
americans
by and large think about the ccp she
doesn't stress it enough
what she doesn't realize is that almost
no americans know that being a member of
a communist party
is different than being a citizen of a
communist country
so what she said to some people would
just sound like she's lying right off
the bat
so a certain percent of people will
already assume that
just as trish said she's here to lie
what she should have done in my opinion
is explicitly spell out the difference
something like
well trish as you should know just
because i live in china doesn't make me
a member of a political party
and the fact is i'm not a member of the
ccp so i have no idea who's doing your
fact checking
if she wanted to be particularly fiery
she could have added a did you prepare
for this debate
give me your current assessment of where
we are on these trade talks
i don't know i i don't have any insider
information
the chinese government has made its
position very clear that
unless the united states treat the
chinese government treat the chinese
negotiating team
now trish asks about the trade
negotiations this part is
psychologically interesting liu sheen
seems to be slightly stuck on trying to
prove that she's not just a mouthpiece
for the ccp
and so she gives the attitude of i don't
know why would i know
the answer she gave is okay but she
should have been more knowledgeable
at this point also if you say i don't
have any insider information
it's inviting people to assume that you
are an insider after all
you are in the ccp especially since you
were accused of being a liar before you
even started talking
but all in all her answer was fine but
it's trisha's response that is just
hilarious to me trade wars are never
good
okay good contribution
so far there hasn't really been a debate
just trish painting lucine as a liar and
lucian is seeming naive
so so far it looks like trish is going
to nail this thing there's a lot of
rhetoric out there
yes fox there is let's hear some of that
rhetoric
let me turn to one of the biggest issues
and that's intellectual property rights
how do american businesses operate in
china
if they're at risk for having their
property their ideas their hard work
stolen
the basic answer to this in my words is
well i guess you'd have to ask the
thousands of companies that are
profiting their asses off already all
over the country
how about we go over there to that
starbucks and we can talk about it you
know the one past the walmart over there
near the sam's club
past the apple store it's on the street
with the hooters and the 500 other
random western companies
so let's see what leosine says well i
think trish
you have to ask american businesses
whether they find coming to china
and cooperating with chinese businesses
has not been
profitable right so she says more or
less the politically correct version of
what i just said
if it sucks so bad for companies to be
here in china why are they flocking over
here and making a ton of
money it actually kind of sounds like a
similar argument people on fox make
when they say if america's so bad why do
immigrants want to come to it
so then leo gives a very long answer
that basically tries to explain
that china has a problem with ip theft
and so does america
actually this is one of her best points
and it is delivered very well
she delivers it in good faith leucine is
clearly trying to have a discussion
or friendly debate about these issues
but trisha's reply to this
very clearly shows you her intentions
liusen pointed out that making broad
statements about china being a
nation of thieves is not helpful because
i think this kind of blanket statement
is really not helpful
really not helpful well it's not just a
statement it's it's multiple reports
including
evidence from the wto but let me ask you
about wall way
and then trisha's reply to that is to
say that it's not just a statement
because there are multiple reports and
data sets
she's just exposed her desperation by
intentionally straw manning leosian's
argument
and then defeating her own straw man
leucine's point is not that
it's a statement which has no basis she
just
told you it has basis her point that you
clearly understand but choose to ignore
is that you can't paint chinese people
as thieves because
some chinese companies have stolen
things just as you can't paint americans
as
thieves in the same life and here trish
throws this out
china passed a law in 2017 requiring
tech companies to work with the military
and the government
what she of course doesn't mention is
that this has been the case in the us
for
decades trish then asked if huawei was
allowed into america could america take
all their advanced
technologies how would that be what if
we said
huawei come on in but here's the deal
you must share all those incredible
technological advances that you've been
working on
you've got to share it with us trish
screwed up by saying
incredible technological advances
because it exposes part of the real
issue
huawei now has technology that america
doesn't
and that's really really scary to some
people lucian doesn't seem to even
notice
that trish is giving a how would you
like if we saw your technology question
instead she takes the question at face
value and answers honestly
if you pay for the use of this ip of
this high technology i think it's
absolutely
fine by this point i'm starting to
believe that leucine is not acting in
her innocence i think that
she thinks trish is interested in an
actual dialogue
it's really sad to see someone actually
trying to talk about an issue
with someone who is just such a sneaky
snake
i learned english because i had american
teachers i still
learn how to do journalism because i
have american
copy editors or editors her answer here
is not great
this may be due to being under pressure
and speaking in english but what she's
technically
saying here in american minds is that
she's still learning journalism
she's coming off like an intern here
again this is due to a cultural
difference
she's trying to push this message of
cooperation in a way that makes sense to
chinese
people but a lot of americans view this
kind of appeal to cooperation as a
sneaky way to gain control
or gain the upper hand at what point
will china decide to abandon its
developing nation status and i'll stop
borrowing from the world bank
you said it in your program as well
china grow up well i think we want to
grow up we don't want to be
you know dwarfed or poor underdeveloped
all the time
we're giving out donations and human
humanitarian aids and all of that
because we know
we have to grow up and and trish thank
you for that reminder
so this is a very interesting answer she
also mentioned
some metrics about why china is still a
developing country
but it's this part that's really
interesting to me because it shows
lucian's personality
she is thanking trish for her attack
against china she's trying to be so
polite here
that she actually does come off as being
a genuinely good person
i think this was a great answer and it
would be very well received by americans
she just seems really nice and genuine
trish asks about making sweeping changes
to all the tariffs and
leucine basically says it would need to
be done properly but
yeah this is the thing if you want to
change the rules it has to be
done in mutual consensus this is a
professional and well thought out reply
this single little statement really
nails the argument from china's side
sure we can change things but it needs
to be a mutually beneficial change
it can't be an unfair treaty then trish
brings up the trade agreement of 1974.
you know you can go back to the trade
agreement of 1974 is a rule that enables
the united states
to use tariffs this of course is just
one of those points that they gave her
in case lucian claimed that the u.s was
violating the laws
but she didn't say that so trish just
sort of randomly mentions it
no one is saying the u.s is breaking the
law trish they're saying that if the u.s
wants to make a trade change
it should do so through negotiations and
diplomacy
not by starting a trade war then trish
goes into the realm of
let's explore what's different and bad
about china
and ask about state-run capitalism we
would like to define a socialism with
chinese characteristics
where market forces are expected to play
the deciding role in the allocation of
resources
we want it to be a market economy but
there are some chinese characteristics
for instance
uh some state-owned enterprises which
are
um playing um an important
but increasingly smaller role
maybe in the economy and this is
actually another great answer from
lucian
except for the strange way she inserted
the word maybe into what she was saying
in english it made her sound unsure of
herself but the substance of what she
said was very good
the more aggressive answer to this
question is how i normally go
yes a capitalist system which has
government over it is different than
america in america the corporations run
the government while claiming that the
government is a safeguard for
corporations
in china the government has tighter
control on the market but guides the
market based on capitalist principles
so for example if the country needs to
have more tech
companies to compete internationally the
government will incentivize the tech
sector
as much as trish is trying to make the
chinese system out to be so different
than america's it's actually not that
different
you start a company and you decide what
to do with it what you sell
who you hire etc yes there's a
government presence
no it's not a dystopia where you have no
options
in short it's socialism you know the
thing that the american left is pushing
for
it's that well i i think you need to
probably keep being open i think that
that's the direction to pursue
here trish is giving advice as if lucian
is literally
china herself it's kind of strange and
condescending
hearing someone try to give china advice
about how to do better economically
since they have outperformed every
country everywhere
ever but anyway
then trish ends the program in a very
hilarious way
listen to these last words no one wants
a trade war
but we have to think long and hard about
the right next steps what does that even
mean
no one wants a trade war okay
then end the trade war i mean trump is
the one starting it
and this program is making it seem like
china or
leosine herself is the cause of it all
if you don't want the trade war
then end the trade war so then she does
a recap with michael pillsbury about the
debate
let's take a look at what he has to say
you mentioned she's not a card
carrying member of the ccp the communist
party of china but
you can't really operate as a television
network there
am i right if if you're not subscribing
to party belief
yes i don't want to say she'd be
arrested immediately but she's very
discreet i thought she very
much sticks to the line of the chinese
communist government
okay so now we see what happens when
there's confusion about the difference
between
the ccp and chinese citizens these guys
think everyone in china is the same
apparently
look people it's not that hard to
understand in china you can't have a
broadcasting tv station without a
license
just like in america i have no idea how
cgtn specifically works
but let me share with you about how the
global times works
i was interviewed by the global times
which is also state-owned media here's
what that experience was like
they met with me and found out if i was
interested in having a conversation
on the record i agreed and then we met
at their offices
they filmed me and asked me several
questions they gave me the draft version
of the article for me to review what i
had said
they allowed me to correct if any
translations were off or if i wanted to
adjust anything i had said for meaning
then they published the final version no
one anywhere told me what i
should say or what i had to say there's
no bulletin board with the
party line written on it it just so
happens that i
agree with a lot of what leosine said
too i'm not a member of
any communist groups at all so what is
that a massive coincidence
how about the crazy idea that maybe just
maybe her points are actually valid and
should be debated and considered
or is that too hard for you is it easier
to just dismiss them as scary 1950s
communist propaganda i thought one very
good thing was when you kept calling her
shin
shin means happy in chinese sin means
happy in chinese
yeah kinda yeah kind of like how
pillsbury means a
white pasty bald guy
she's willing to concede that there's
room for these negotiations
she's willing to concede
isn't it the chinese government saying
that there needs to be negotiations
and the american government is the one
who suddenly
abandoned negotiations and started a
trade war
what are you talking about and just to
rub it in our faces how little she knows
about chyna
trish gives us this little cringe clip
there's been a lot of criticism
i'll say it's a good thing i can't read
mandarin no one can read mandarin trish
given that it's a spoken dialect
did you mean to say you can't read
chinese anyway this debate wasn't very
emotional or wild
but it was fascinating for me to watch i
love seeing people struggle to
communicate through the
cultural barrier between america and
china it gives me something to fight for
i want to break that barrier down all in
all i'd say trish
had worse intentions and didn't seem to
present any facts
at all while lucien seemed quite a nice
person and did present some facts
my feeling from this was that i would
never want to talk to trish about
anything ever and i would totally hang
out with lucian
i mean one of them would seem kind of
evil and the other one seemed pretty
nice
this whole narrative about america being
some victim is really a dead end
negotiate for a better deal don't cry
about it thanks everybody
see ya