- I think when you love someone a lot
and then that person becomes someone you can't love anymore,
you need a direction to point that feeling.
'Cause the feeling is just as strong,
but now you can't point it at love.
So I think the natural next inclination
is to just reverse it and point it at hate,
because it kind of scratches the same itch.
It feels like it comes from the same place in your heart.
I mean, I wanted the song to feel like a conversation,
'cause this is a song talking to someone
who I unfortunately don't get to speak to anymore,
and that's hard.
And this is kind of like what I would say to her
if I had the chance.
From kind of the onset, I knew this was a song
that I wanted to bring someone else into,
but I knew that those people had to be
people that not only I thought were incredible,
but people I trusted emotionally.
So it just felt like a natural fit
to bring in Olivia and bring in Dan into this world
and have them help me kind of bring
the best out of the song.
I think it was easy co-writing the song with Olivia
because at least, I think of songwriters as translators,
and you take these kind of intangible feelings
and you put them into words, which can be really hard.
But for Olivia, it doesn't seem to be so hard.
She's so emotionally intelligent.
And she was just such the perfect partner and fit
to take this really hard-to-describe feeling
and put into words.
So the first line, I wonder if your therapist likes me,
to me is a bit more like philosophical, of like,
are we remembering things the same way?
When we fell apart, do you remember it how I remember it?
I think there's certain dynamics
that are inside a kind of romantic or intimate relationship
that are super, super hyper specific to them.
And so it's wondering if like other people
have perceived you as, you know, the way I have.
I think I certainly have a habit of dating other musicians.
And so I've heard plenty of of songs about me
and good and bad, and it can kind of hurt a little bit,
but I understand that is part of the process,
'cause I'm doing it myself.
And so even if it hurts a little bit,
I totally understand it.
Yeah, so I kind of desperately wanted
this person to find closure,
but I felt like I'd said all I was able to say to them
and I'd been as honest as I possibly could.
And so I think the next logical place to reach for
in kind of the toolbox of getting over someone is hate.
And hate can feel good for a little bit, which is nice,
but unfortunately I don't think it's a thing
that's gonna get you over the hump in the end,
and it's not the thing that's gonna get you
to the other side of that feeling.
This section for me,
at least from a songwriting perspective,
it allowed me to feel more comfortable
being so direct in the first verse
and in the first pre-chorus and in the chorus,
because I'm admitting here
that I'm going through the same thing.
And for me, this section kind of represents
the both the physical and the mental real estate
that this person is still taking up in my head.
Some people are really good at writing in the moment
about how they feel.
And for me, that's just never been the case.
Like if I'm in it, I'm feeling in it
and I'm not able to write about it.
I kind of think of the songwriting
as like the end of the healing process.
Like, this is the end of the process, not the beginning.
So this part is extremely tongue and cheek,
which I don't know if it comes across to everyone
but I am unbelievably not sorry about any of these things.
I would never go back and change a single thing
about the way I treated this person.
I'm extremely proud about, like,
how much I was there for this person
and how much I tried to help.
This part for me is kind of coming to this realization
that like no matter how hurt I am
or no matter how it hurt she is or was,
we'll never be able to hate each other,
like for real, you know?
And that was kind of a comforting conclusion for me.
I produced the song with Dan Nigro,
who's a dear friend of mine,
and someone who I certainly look up to.
I was fortunate enough to have a, you know,
creative and working rapport with both Olivia and Dan
prior to this, which made it a lot easier
to kind of get into you a feeling
that was this powerful for me and this deep for me.