Christopher Heusgen is the new head of the Munich Security Conference. He has been working
in foreign policies for more than 40 years. It's with great pleasure to meet him here
in Washington during the Munich Security Conference Spring's summit. Mr. Heusgen, great seeing
you again.
Wonderful to have you.
So you are here in the US also to kind of test the waters, especially ahead of these
crucial midterm elections. You met with Republican lawmakers. What did you take from that meeting?
We were I wouldn't say nervous, but we were very curious. How would the representatives
of different parties now with this challenge that Russia aggression in Ukraine poses? How
is their position if the midterms go, as apparently everybody expects, will go to a Republican
majority? Would this change the American policy? And my impression is very clear that this
is a bipartisan position, that Democrats and Republicans, lawmakers are very firm in the
support on a tough policy against Russia, on a strong policy of support to to Ukraine.
So that was a really comforting information that we received here.
Bipartisan is a word we don't hear so often anymore in this really divided country. That's
interesting. But how do you prepare or can you prepare for the possibility that a Donald
Trump is coming back and might use his power to convince Republicans not to put in so much
money in the support of Ukraine?
We live with the present situation and the present situation from also Republican lawmakers.
We talk to a number of Republicans, also those that apparently are very much in the Trump
camp. And the message was very clear. This is something where Republicans and Democrats
are united. I even heard some Republicans saying if Trump had been president, he would
have been much tougher on Russia than than President Biden is. So I think we are right
now in a time where in the United States we have on this issue bipartisanship. And we
have a very good and very close cooperation across the Atlantic.
The current president of France, Macron, said, and I quote this here we should not humiliate
Vladimir Vladimir Putin. Do you agree with that?
Well, you know, first of all, it's it's up to Ukrainians to say how how they want to
direct this war. We have built so many bridges to Putin. I remember when we were, you know,
trying to get the so-called Petersburg dialogue revitalized, where you have discussions with
Russia, between politicians, between representative business, civil society, media. We build so
many bridges. We have, unfortunately, to see that he destroyed all these bridges, that
he has violated the UN charter. He has violated the charter of Paris, he has violated the,
you know, the Budapest Memorandum where actually Russia guaranteed territorial sovereignty
and integrity to Ukraine and Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons. If a politician actually
doesn't adhere to any of the agreements that he or Russia signed, then you wonder, how
can you work with somebody like this in the future? So I, I think for me, we need Russia.
We need Russia to achieve this sustainable development goals, climate and everything.
But for me, you cannot seriously talk to a man anymore who has actually violated everything.
And he is responsible for for war crimes. And I don't think that that he can be a partner
again. Is it possible is it thinkable that Russia
and Putin be integrated again in this world order after being kind of completely excluded.
He committed a a breach of civilization. And I don't see how you can sit down with somebody
like them who is responsible for the attack on a country for a violation of the UN charter.
You have seen the pictures. What happens to this? Thousands of mothers and children for
the thousands of deaths, for the destruction of of a city like Mariupol, attacks on the
city of Odessa. I cannot see how you can sit around the table with somebody who is. On
for this.
But what does it mean? Do we have to wait for the next president, for the next leader
in Russia? As I said, I don't think that you can sit
with with Putin around the table how Russia is represented. We have the question of the
G20, etc.. There will be Russian representatives at the United Nations. I just don't think
that you can you can seriously sit down with Putin anymore and take him seriously, because
when he signed something, you know, he will not implement it.
You've also been working as the German ambassador to the UN. How can Russia be removed from
the UN Security Council? There is no way that you can remove Russia
from the Security Council. The Russia is a founding member and for Russia, but also for
the United States, it was a condition for them to join the UN that they have a veto.
Right. And Russia is now extensively using this veto. Right. But this is a situation
that we that we had also during the during the Cold War. What for me, is very important,
and we have seen this is a certain shift to the General Assembly when Russia a veto when
the Security Council wanted to condemn Russia, it went to the General Assembly. And in the
General Assembly, it was made very clear to the world public that it's only the dictators
of of Belarus, of Syria, of Eritrea and North Korea that support Putin. So. Also, the UN
also made it very clear who is the culprit.
But it's also China and the African continent, which is not standing so unified behind the
Western alliance. How can you kind of present a viable alternative to China's influence,
especially in Africa?
Yes, I think sometimes we commit the mistake of presenting this conflict that we are witnessing
now in Ukraine, the Russian aggression that we or it is presented as kind of a prolongation
of the East-West conflict. And and this is not what it is. What we are witnessing is
the blatant violation of the UN Charter of International Law, of the international rules
based order. And I think this has to be our message, this has to be our message also towards
African countries, Latin American countries. This is not about east west. This is about
the the the rules that are enshrined in the UN Charter and we have to work together worldwide
to preserve this basis for our, for our civilization.
But having that said, I mean the support from then China, India isn't as it probably in
your opinion should be in the UN. Well, no, we have these great power games
and we see that China and India are abstaining. And this is something where I think we have
to work hard on and we have to also make it very clear to these countries that, you know,
what is at stake here is the UN charter is the do we want to follow international rules
or don't we want to do it? So I think we have to we have to work very hard. And this is
also something that we have to do from from Germany, from European countries. Sometimes
you hear the argument with the United States in the lead that, well, these are double standards.
You know, where was the international community when the US in the second Iraq war invaded
Iraq also without any basis and no international law as justification. So this is what we have
to overcome. This is an important role also for us Europeans, for a country like Germany
that is also has always based its policy on the on international law and that we also
step up to the plate.
There's a lot of applause for the current side, and then there is our Chancellor, Schulz
said. But there is also a lot of criticism of Germany's long standing Russia policies.
Was Angela merkel naive? Well, um, we have talked to a lot of colleagues
here from all over the world, and everybody tells us that they were surprised what Russia
did, that Russia was actually now Putin was became as aggressive as he as he did. You
know, we were at the Munich Security Conference in February where the international community
was very united. I mean, we were thinking that Putin must be impressed by by this and
he will not dare to enter Ukraine because it will end badly for him. He went in there
anyway and it's ending very badly for him. So. Um, I think one needs to take into consideration
also the way to which in which, um, Putin, um, during COVID has been secluded from public,
public opinion, public. Wider European public opinion. And he has started to believe his
own own propaganda. And this is very difficult then to to cope with basically. I think the
the idea that we had since the end of the Second World War after, um, you know, in the
name of Germany, 27 million Soviets were killed. I think for us to try and get into a better
relationship with with Russia to build bridges, I think was the right, right policy. We just
have to realize that Russia today is ready to destroy all these bridges that we have
been trying to build. But there were warning voices. I had the honour
to interview George W Bush half a year ago or so, and we talked about Angela merkel and
her legacy. And as much as he praised her, he said that he and that was before the war
in Ukraine, that he warned Angela merkel and her administration about the dependency from
Russia when it comes to German energy supply, don't you think the German administration's
kind of again were naive or underestimating Vladimir Putin?
I think that what what we what I have been really proposing for a long time is that we
have something like a National Security Council where you deal with these questions. You know,
in a context, I think we have when we were when when the questions were answered, where
do we get our energy from after we said we don't we don't want to prolong nuclear energy.
When we said we don't want coal, we looked around and said, well, where is the cheapest
gas? And this was from Russia. So we went that way. I think what would have been necessary
and I think what I really think we urgently need is a kind of a National Security Council
where all these questions, you know, defence and but also energy security, you know, domestic
security, terrorism, this all comes together and these questions are dealt with. It's not
only from a point of view where do we get our cheapest energy from, but what does this
mean with regard to strategic dependence? We have this discussion now, you know, a lot
on China. You know, how much do we depend on China? And I think there's also a question
it's also a question of security. How much do we make us dependent on China? While I'm
not in favor of breaking ties with China, but there has to be a balance and we have
to actually diversify also with regard to China.
You've been in foreign policy for 40 years. When you look backwards, was there a moment
in hindsight, obviously when you think, wow, that could have been a warning when it comes
to Putin?
Well, we have seen Putin how he how he behaved. And when you go back at the last aggression
of Putin in 2014-2015, it was actually Chancellor Merkel, together with Francois Hollande, who
was at the frontline and in negotiations, stopped the Russian advance. They agreed on
the Minsk agreement and they got Russia at the table. So I think that was a right decision.
Again, what happened then? We try to read it to get into negotiations to see how can
we resolve this with peaceful means. At some stage, Putin decided, no, he wants to to go
on another track. And this is what what happened then on the 24th of.
February, Germany, as you just said, was once really seen as a bridge builder to Moscow
who could fill in this role moving forward. I think right now it's very difficult to fill
in. We have many Russians who have fled Russia and they come to Germany. I think these people
who are educated people, who are people who are desperate when they see what is happening
there, I think there are so many also in other countries, Russians. I think these will be
the partners in the in the future to build a new Russia.
Thank you very much. And I'm looking forward to keep this conversation going.
Yes. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you.