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>> Stephen: WELCOME BACK, EVERYBODY.
MY NEXT GUEST TONIGHT IS A "60 MINUTES" CORRESPONDENT AND
AUTHOR WHO HAS BEEN REPORTING ON WASHINGTON SINCE 1995.
PLEASE WELCOME BACK TO "A LATE SHOW," JOHN DICKERSON!
JOHN, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN, STEPHEN.
>> Stephen: NOW, JOHN, THE LAST TIME YOU AND I WERE TALKING
TOGETHER IS BECAUSE YOU HAD RELEASED YOUR NEW BOOK, "THE
HARDEST JOB IN THE WORLD," WHICH IS A HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN
PRESIDENCY AND HOW IT HAS BECOME NEARLY AN IMPOSSIBLE JOB TO DO.
SO I THINK YOU'RE EXACTLY THE PERSON TO TALK ABOUT HOW THIS
NOW AFFECTS THE JOB AND THE POLITICS OF THE MOMENT.
IT'S ONLY OCTOBER 2.
HOW MANY MORE OCTOBER SURPRISES CAN WE EXPECT TO GET?
>> YOU KNOW, I MEAN, WHEN YOU THINK OF THE TAX STORY, THAT WAS
AN OCTOBER SURPRISE THAT HIT IN SEPTEMBER.
NOW THIS ONE HITS AT THE BEGINNING OF OCTOBER.
IT'S-- IT'S-- YOU KNOW, WE LOOK AT THE POLLS AND THEY HAVE NOT
RESPONDED TO SOME OF THESE HUGE SHOCKS TO THE POLITICAL SYSTEM,
BUT THIS IS QUITE DIFFERENT.
I MEAN, THIS IS THE NUMBER-ONE ISSUE AT THE CENTER OF AMERICAN
LIFE, AND THE PRESIDENT IS NOW BOTH RESPONSIBLE FOR THE
RESPONSE AND HE IS NOW A PATIENT BEING TREATED FOR IT.
>> Stephen: CAN YOU THINK OF ANYTHING HISTORICALLY THAT'S
COMPARABLE TO THIS MOMENT?
>> YOU KNOW, NOT THIS LATE IN THE-- I MEAN, THERE ARE
CERTAINLY PRESIDENTS WHO HAVE BEEN SICK, AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT
THAT, BUT NOT SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENED THIS CLOSE.
I MEAN, THERE ARE 32 DAYS TO THE ELECTION.
THE VOTING IS GOING ON NOW.
THE PRESIDENT HAS RAISED QUESTIONS AND ENCOURAGED HIS
SUPPORTERS TO RAISE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.
THERE'S A SUPREME COURT NOMINATION GOING ON.
THE PANDEMIC IS STILL GOING ON.
SO NOTHING THAT HAS BEEN THIS CRITICAL AND HAD THIS MUCH GOING
ON ALL AT THE SAME TIME THIS CLOSE TO AN ELECTION.
>> Stephen: SO IN SOME WAYS, THE WAY THAT TRUMP BEING TAKEN
OFF TO WALTER REED AND-- IS SORT OF PAR FOR THE COURSE THIS YEAR.
IT'S ONE OF THE MOST 2020 THINGS THAT COULD HAPPEN RIGHT NOW.
>> IT IS.
ALTHOUGH, YOU COULD SAY HIM GETTING CORONAVIRUS IS VERY
2020.
BUT WHAT STRUCK ME ABOUT SEEING THE PRESIDENT IN THE METHODICAL
STEPS OF GETTING HIM TO WALTER REED, WEARING A MASK-- WHICH WE
DON'T SEE HIM OFTEN DOING-- THE PROTOCOL AND EVERYTHING THAT IS
KICKING INTO PLACE IS-- IT'S IMPERVIOUS TO SPIN.
IT'S NOT LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE WE'VE SEEN.
IT'S NOT LIKE IT THE THE THE STUFF IN THE CAMPAIGN WHICH IS
ALL ABOUT SHAPING THE ENVIRONMENT AND THE NARRATIVE.
THIS IS THE METHODICAL STEPS TO GET A PRESIDENT WELL, BECAUSE
IT'S THAT SERIOUS.
>> Stephen: IT SORT OF GOES BACK TO WHAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN
SAYING FOR THE LAST SEVEN MONTHS, WHICH IS COVID DOESN'T
CARE WHAT YOUR PARTY IS, AND COVID DOESN'T CARE HOW THE
SENATE VOTES.
COVID DOESN'T CARE HOW YOU WANT TO POSITION THIS MESSAGE.
COVID IS THE MESSAGE.
>> EXACTLY.
COVID WAIT FOR NO MAN OR WOMAN.
IT IS COMING, AND IT IS RELENTLESS.
AND WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PRESIDENT'S RESPONSE TO COVID A
CONSTANT EFFORT TO PLAY DOWN THE RISKS OF IT, AND HIS-- HIS
PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN PLEADING FOR PEOPLE TO NOT
LOSE SIGHT OF THE FACT THAT COVID DOES NOT STOP.
IT CONTINUES.
AND SO YOU'VE SEEN THAT TENSION FOR MONTHS GOING ON-- I MEAN, ON
ALL DIFFERENT KINDS OF ISSUES, AND YOU'VE SEEN IT ON THIS MASK
QUESTION.
AND NOW WE'RE NOT THINKING ABOUT IT JUST THEORETICALLY.
IT HAS, IN FACT, COME TO PASS, THAT THE PRESIDENT, WHO HAS NOT
SHARED THAT VIEW, THAT HIS ADVISERS HAVE, NOW IS HAVING TO
GO THROUGH SPECIAL TREATMENT, AND IT'S ALL, YOU KNOW, VERY UP
IN THE AIR AS WE TRY TO GET INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT IN FACT
HIS CONDITION IS.
>> Stephen: SO THERE ARE FIVE WEEKS UNTIL THE ELECTION--
THEREABOUTS.
AND TWO OF THOSE WEEKS, THE PRESIDENT WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BE
OUT ON THE ROAD CAMPAIGNING.
WHAT DOES THIS DO TO RACE?
WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES FOR BOTH OF THESE CAMPAIGNS?
BECAUSE, OBVIOUSLY, THIS HAS TO CHANGE IN SOME WAYS WHAT BIDEN
IS DOING.
>> WELL, YES.
WHAT IT DID AT FIRST IS IT INTERRUPTED WITH A PLEASANT
RETURN TO SOME NORMS THAT WE MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT WERE GONE,
WHICH IS THAT JOE BIDEN AND A LOT OF OTHER DEMOCRATS WISHED
THE PRESIDENT WELL.
THEY BASICALLY SPOKE IN HUMAN TERMS ABOUT THE PRESIDENT AND
HIS HEALTH AND PRAYED FOR IT.
THAT INTERRUPTION, HOWEVER, THAT'S AN ASSERTION OF A NORM
AND IN THESE TIMES OF SHREDDING NORMS, IT'S NICE TO SEE THEM
REASSERTED, BUT THE CONTINUES.
AND WHAT THIS WILL DO IS TWO THINGS.
ONE, IT WILL KEEP THE STORY FOCUSED ON THE VERY THING THE
PRESIDENT DOESN'T WANT THE STORY FOCUSED ON, WHICH IS THE
PANDEMIC AND HIS HANDLING OF IT.
65% OF THE COUNTRY THINK HE'S DONE A POOR JOB.
HE'S BEEN WORKING VERY, VERY HARD IN EVERYTHING, INCLUDING
THE DEBATE THIS WEEK, TO CHANGE THE TOPIC ON ANYTHING BUT COVID.
NOW IT'S AT THE CENTER OF THE CONVERSATION.
HE IS KEPT IN THESE CONSTRAINED CONDITIONS WHICH MEANS HE THEN
CAN'T GO OUT IN THE COUNTRY AND CHANGE THE CONVERSATION TO
SOMETHING ELSE.
>> Stephen: FOR MONTHS NOW, THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN HAS BEEN
GOING AFTER JOE BIDEN AND SAYING THINGS LIKE HE IS SITTING IN HIS
BASEMENT ALONE, HIDING, DIMINISHED.
AND MUCH OF TRUMP'S MESSAGE-- NOT JUST NOW BUT THROUGHOUT HIS
POLITICAL CAREER AND BEFORE THAT IS THE IDEA OF STRENGTH.
THE FACT THAT HE'S PRESENTLY AT WALTER REED, HOW IS THAT GOING
TO CHANGE HOW HE CAN CAMPAIGN AGAINST JOE BIDEN EVEN WHEN HE
COMES OUT OF IT?
>> YOU KNOW, WELL, ALREADY, IT MAKES THOSE PAST STATEMENTS AND
THE PRESIDENT'S STATEMENTS DURING THE DEBATE, IN WHICH HE
MADE FUN OF JOE BIDEN FOR WEARING A MASK, HIS FAMILY
MEMBERS WHO DIDN'T WEAR A MASK AT THE DEBATE, IN HINDSIGHT,
THOSE ALL LOOK FOOLHARDY.
AND, AGAIN, THIS IS NOT SOME FRIVOLOUS THING.
THIS IS THE CENTRAL ISSUE WHERE 207,000 AMERICANS HAVE DIED.
AND IT CONNECTS WITH A CENTRAL CRITIQUE OF THE PRESIDENT, WHICH
IS THAT IN DOWNPLAYING THE VIRUS, WHETHER IT IS WITH
RESPECT TO HIS OWN HEALTH, THE HEALTH OF HIS FAMILY, OR WEARING
A MASK, CONNECTS WITH THE POLICY RESPONSE, WHICH HAS BEEN TO
DOWNPLAY, WHICH HAS THAT HUGE RESULT OF THE HUNDREDS OF
THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS DEAD.
SO THE PRESIDENT WILL NO DOUBT, AS A CLEVER POLITICIAN, TRY TO
DO SOMETHING TO MAKE SOMETHING POSITIVE OF THIS.
BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT IT CONNECTS WITH THE NUMBER ONE
THING HE HAS BEEN TRYING TO AVOID AND MAKES IT A PERSONAL
PART OF HIS STORY, WHICH IS GOING TO CALL FOR ENDLESS HOURS
OF COVERAGE, IT WILL BE VERY, VERY HARD TO SURMOUNT THAT WITH
SOME KIND OF ATHLETIC ACT OF POLITICAL GAMESMANSHIP.
>> Stephen: LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CONSTITUTIONAL
RESPONSIBILITIES HERE.
WE SOUGHT PRESIDENT WALK OUT TO MARINE ONE AND WALK OFF OF
MARINE ONE.
HE SEEMS AS STEADY AS EVER.
HE'S WEARING A MASK.
THERE'S NO OVERT SENSE THAT HE'S COMPROMISED IN ANY WAY.
AT WHAT POINT IS THE 25th AMENDMENT INVOKED?
LIKE, WHEN WOULD MIKE PENCE BE ASKED TO TAKE ANY
RESPONSIBILITIES?
>> YOU KNOW, WELL, THERE ARE A VARIETY OF DINNER TRIGGERS.
THE WAY IT'S BEEN TRIGGERED MOST RECENTLY-- THERE ARE WAYS IN
WHICH YOU CAN TRIGGER IT WITHOUT THE PRESIDENT'S CONSENT.
THE PRESIDENT HAS GIVEN CONSENT TWICE, WHEN GEORGE W. BUSH HAD A
COLONOSCOPY AND WENT OTHER.
THAT WAS ALSO THE CASE WITH RONALD REAGAN.
THAT COULD HAPPEN HERE, BUT ONE THING THAT IS IMPORTANT, WHILE
THERE ARE PROTOCOLS AND A RULE MANUAL FOR HANDLING THOSE
THINGS, THIS IS A STRESS TEST OF THE WHITE HOUSE OPERATION, OF
THE WHOLE TEAM.
AND THAT MEANS NOT ONLY DEALING WITH HANDLING THE PRESIDENT'S
ILLNESS AND INFORMING THE PUBLIC, BUT THE TO-DO LIST THAT
IS THERE THAT HE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO HANDLE IN HIS CONDITION, OR
AT LEAST MAY BE HARDER FOR HIM TO HANDLE.
YOU HAVE TO HAVE A GOOD TEAM IN PLACE TO DO THAT.
YOU CAN'T FIGURE THAT OUT ON THE FLY.
AND IT'S WHY SO MANY WHITE HOUSE VETERANS SAY BUILDING A TEAM,
HAVING A TEAM THAT WORKS TOGETHER IS TOW IMPORTANT,
BECAUSE THIS IS THE KIND OF SURPRISE ALTHOUGH THIS IS AN
EXTRAORDINARY ONE-- THAT FACES A PRESIDENT.
>> Stephen: I READ ABOUT THE NECESSITY OF BUILDING A GOOD
TEAM IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
IT'S IN A BOOK CALLED "THE HARDEST JOB IN THE WORLD."
YOU SHOULD CHECK IT OUT SOME TIME.
IT'S PRETTY DARN GOOD.
DO YOU HAVE A COPY?
>> YOU KNOW, YES, I DO, RIGHT HERE.
AVAILABLE AT BOOKSTORES NEAR YOU.
>> Stephen: IT'S AN EXCELLENT GIFT FOR WHATEVER HOLIDAY COMES
UP NEXT.
NOW, I-- I HAVE TO SAY, WHEN I SAW MARINE ONE TAKE OFF FROM THE
WHITE HOUSE LAWN TO TAKE THE PRESIDENT AWAY-- EVEN THOUGH HE
DOES HIS CHOPPER TALK FREQUENTLY-- WE NEVER SEE MARINE
ONE TAKING OFF IN THAT SHOT.
WHEN WE SAW THAT SHOT AND THE CAMERA FOLLOW IT OVER THE
POTOMAC TO WALTER REED, WE ASSOCIATE THAT SHOT WITH JANUARY
20 THE DAY THE PRESIDENT LEAVES THE WHITE HOUSE FOR THE LAST
TIME.
WHAT WAS YOUR EMOTIONAL RESPONSE WHEN YOU SAY AIR FORCE-- I MEAN,
MARINE ONE TAKING OFF?
>> THAT'S RIGHT, THEY DON'T HOLD THE SHOT.
THE PRESIDENT IS OFF TO GO DO WHATEVER HE IS GOING TO DO.
BUT IN THIS CASE THE JOURNEY ITSELF IS INTERESTING SO THEY
HOLD THE SHOT.
WHAT STRUCK ME IN THAT MOMENT WE ARE WATCHING IN REAL TIME THE
PRESIDENT BE CARED FOR.
THERE'S LOTS OF PRESIDENTIAL HISTORY OF PRESIDENTS BASICALLY
SNEAKING AWAY AND NOT TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT HOW SICK THEY
ARE.
WILSON HAD A STROKE IN OFFICE.
THEY HILDT HID THAT FROM THE COUNTRYFOR MONTHS.
EISENHOWER HAD A HEART ATTACK.
THEY TOLD REPORTERS IT WAS BECAUSE HE HAD TOO MANY ONIONS
ON HIS BURGER.
CLEVELAND WENT AWAY AND GOT JAW SURGERY AND WORE A FACE MASK TO
HEIGHT HIDEIT.
THE TRADITION HAS BEEN TO HIDE THESE THINGS.
WHILE THE INFORMATION COMING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE HAS BEEN A
LITTLE BIT SPOT, WATCHING IT HAPPEN IN REAL TIME IS QUITE
NEW, AND PRESIDENTS CAN ONLY SORT OF PROTECT THIS INFORMATION
AS MUCH AS-- NOT VERY MUCH IN THE AGE OF EVERYTHING BEING
FILMED.
>> Stephen: JOHN WE HAVE TO TAKE A QUICK BREAK.
STICK AROUND, EVERYBODY.
WHEN WE COME BACK, I'LL ASK JOHN ABOUT HOW THIS MAY AFFECT THE
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS FOR AMY CONEY BARRETT.
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.
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