- Let's talk about, how are you and Tom Holland doing?
Have you sucked it up and watched 'No Way Home' yet?
I mean, you and [Anthony] Mackie just give
this poor kid so much grief.
- First, I mean, I almost felt like, I was like,
"Wow, this joke has gone way long."
(chuckles)
- You guys are in it for the long haul.
- I was sitting there going like,
"Oh, here I am promoting my movie saying like,
'You know what, I'm not going to support Tom Holland.'"
Meanwhile, his movie has obliterated mine.
It's just like, half a billion dollars, whatever it is.
No, I have not seen it yet.
I have not seen it yet.
I need to see it.
- Do you know what happens?
Do you want me to act it out?
You want me to...
- Well, I know who else is in it.
I know the many other Spider-Mans that are in it now,
so I do know that.
He's great.
- So things are good.
You guys are OK. That's good.
Sebastian, congratulations on this one, man.
Look, I feel like every time you and I talk,
we're on the knife's edge of a viral video
ruining your career, so it feels very appropriate.
- Right.
- We're talking about 'Pam & Tommy,'
the ultimate viral video.
- Only if Tom Hiddleston's involved, right?
(laughing)
- Hiddleston and Mackie.
They're all trying to bring you down.
- Well, or up.
I don't know, depending on how you look at it.
It certainly is a very interesting story, this whole thing.
And just talking about it all day, it just, obviously,
again, it reiterates
how much we didn't know about it
and how much I didn't know about it.
You know, I mean, we were young, you know, we were,
we're probably similar age.
I think I was 12 in '95.
I had, you know, I had heard things
about it in high school briefly,
but I didn't really understand
what the fallout was and how it actually happened
and what it did to them, what it did to her.
So, it's kind of an interesting time to look back
and explore that whole thing again.
- No, totally.
And similar in some respects, the way you're talking,
I know you collaborated with Craig Gillespie on this one and
'I, Tonya,' which was obviously a re-evaluation
and kind of like re-contextualization of that story.
- Right.
- I mean, this one, I mean,
Pamela Anderson back then perceived in one light
as kind of complicit.
And now, you know, we have a much different view of things.
Like, how has your view of Pam in particular changed,
Pamela Anderson changed, through the process of making this?
- Well, I think looking back, it's like you said.
You know, it feels like everybody projected
their ideas onto them and onto her in particular.
And in making this, obviously you're learning that
she was planning to be a parent.
She was trying to start a family.
She was trying to have a career and take some shots.
And every time she was going, you know,
attempting something, they would,
you know, they would put her right back in that lane
and sort of try to keep her there.
And I think this whole idea of projection,
which we're all kind of at fault for, you know,
we do it so often.
And I think we, you know,
we see something and we immediately come up with a narrative
or the media inspires a narrative that maybe doesn't really
apply to the actual truth.
And sadly, it kind of, you know,
deranges people's point of view often.
So I just, you know,
I just think being able to kind of explore that
and sort of ask those questions,
the things that we're talking
about now, is probably important, so.
- As you well know, the transformation for both
you and Lily [James] in this is pretty remarkable,
what you guys were able to accomplish - your whole hair,
makeup team, costumes, et cetera.
Talk to me about, OK,
compare and contrast for me the first time
you see yourself in full makeup as Tommy Lee
versus the first time you see yourself as Winter Soldier.
Are both surreal in their own ways?
Like, which blew your brain apart more, do you think?
- Winter Soldier is a fictional character.
He didn't, as far as I know, he doesn't exist, Josh.
- What?
- I don't know if you knew that.
- I need a second, guys.
- Yeah, exactly.
But, and now we're, you know,
we're dealing with a real-life person.
And not only just any person,
but somebody who's been labeled
the greatest drummer of all time.
It was scary.
I think scary is the right word, you know.
I think I don't have a tattoo on my body, right?
So it's like, when I got the call from Craig
saying, hey, you know, you should play this role,
I was very happy 'cause it was him, right?
'Cause I loved working with him,
but I didn't understand how he thought
I would have been the guy to play, you know, to -
I was like, I don't play any music.
I don't play any instruments,
but I think that's the challenge, right?
As an actor, sometimes you're looking to be scared.
You're looking to learn something.
You're looking to, kind of,
for something that shocks you or, you know,
it's just very different from you or, you know,
and I think that that was probably some of the appeal there.
- I can only imagine the texts you got
from friends after the first photos.
- The photos were interesting, right,
because we had done a camera test.
We knew we needed to get ahead of it at some point.
Somebody was -
- 'Cause you were shooting outside.
I saw the paparazzi stuff started to come out immediately.
- Yeah, someone was going to take a picture at some point.
And we were like, and I think it was Craig who was like,
let's just redo that picture, or let's try for that picture.
And so we ended up taking a bunch of them.
And then the one that you saw kind of ended up out there.
And obviously it was,
I think going through that camera test was a big relief
for Lily and I, 'cause we would finally go, OK,
like, maybe this will work, you know?
- Right, right.
Jump off the cliff together and see what happens.
- Yeah, completely.
- So you mentioned, yeah,
no tattoos on the actual Sebastian Stan.
Having gone through this much tatted-up look,
how big of an Anthony Mackie tattoo are you planning now?
That's obviously going to be the first one, right?
- The Anthony Mackie tattoo.
No, I mean,
he is tattooed on my heart
for a very long time, forever, so.
- For good or bad, yeah.
You can't get rid of that guy. - Exactly.
- So this performance, this character, I mean,
anybody that knows anything about Tommy Lee, I mean,
he's a big personality, obviously, in every respect.
I've seen you in this great new film as well, 'Fresh,'
which is also a big swing of a performance.
And it's awesome, man.
- Thank you, man.
- And knowing what I do of you over the years,
generally speaking, a pretty soft-spoken, chill guy.
Look, this is what acting is, obviously,
but is it cathartic to kind of play these kinds of roles?
Do you find there is some kind of like exorcism of the soul
to like, you know, just be these big personalities?
- I don't know.
I mean, I get drawn to things for different reasons.
I've learned you're only as good as the company you keep.
If you're opposite great actors,
you're only going to be better.
And, you know, I, with 'Fresh,' it was Daisy Edgar-Jones.
I just thought she was so amazing in that 'Normal People,'
and I remember when I saw she had signed on, I was like,
I gotta see what this project's about.
You know, I gotta try and go in there.
And Mimi Cave's a very talented director as well.
And obviously Craig here is a big part of it for me.
And I'd been a fan of Lily and Seth [Rogen], so,
it's a combination of things sometimes that you're looking
at, because you do go into it for a long period of time and
it does take a lot out of you and then
you're going to go and talk about it.
There's a nostalgic thing about it.
So you want it to be something
that's trying to say something or is asking some questions.
Great characters,
sort of, that end up being memorable
kind of come with a lot.
So you're just looking to find, you know,
the right combination, I guess.
- I'm curious, in this story
that's kind of like the ultimate story
about fame and celebrity and scandal -
Like, you haven't had the scandal part
but you've had the fame part, and certainly
I've seen your evolution in terms of your profile growing,
thanks in part to the Marvel films, et cetera.
I'm curious just like what your own
reckoning with fame has been.
Was there a big adjustment period for you,
or was it kind of easy to grapple with
when you became such a public person?
- I don't know.
I don't really think, believe it or not,
I don't think about it as much as maybe I should.
I don't know.
It's interesting, right,
this idea of fame,
'cause what is that even now, right?
Like, technically you could say everybody's
famous to some extent, right?
I mean, social media is, you know,
personalities, TikTok, right?
We're in this world now where I'm not even sure
what - fame seemingly is
whatever everyone seems to want or be vying for.
In my case, you know,
I've certainly been around for a minute.
(laughing)
I'm 39.
I'm, you know, I haven't,
it's taken a long time to kind of try and get people to keep
paying attention. Then there's hard work.
There's, you know, there's a piece to it that comes with it.
- The nature of yours, though,
is very particular, and look,
I've talked to many different actors
that have had kind of different levels
of fandom around them.
And you're one of those guys, as you well know,
that has people that respect you for different reasons in
different kind of, like, categories.
Like, you're, you know, forgive me,
you're kind of like one of the internet's boyfriends, right?
Like, you're like one of those people that is obsessed over
in that very particular way.
- [Sebastian] Right.
- You must see the GIFs and all of it.
And the like, I mean, is that something
that makes you uneasy, or at this point can you
have a sense of humor about that aspect of fame?
Outside of the acting.
- I think gratitude is probably the
thing that comes to mind, right?
Like, any time someone can connect with you
in some way, you know, whatever.
And again, there are messages that I get all the time,
you know, it's sort of like,
hey, you've made me think about this.
Or, you know, I just wanted you to know
I was going through a really dark time and,
you know, I looked at you or
the character you were playing and it made me feel -
And you read that and you go,
(beep)
OK, like, this is, something is translating
and that's good.
It's interesting,
'cause I think sometimes, you know,
again, we're talking about a lot of things here,
we're talking about projection
and things that we've been discussing.
And I think that I fear that sometimes
there's a desensitizing that's
happening on the internet towards people.
You know, we're much quicker now to judge
and we're much quicker to just project something
onto somebody because, you know, you can.
- Right.
And not see them as, like, a human being
and see them as, like, an avatar of a human.
- And all I worry about is just, like, younger people.
That's all.
Like if, you know, I mean, you've gone through high school.
High school's insane.
OK?
Like, my high school was crazy too.
I mean, you know, I still had an accent.
I was like, you know, the foreign exchange student,
you know, people were making fun of me, like it's -
But going through high school now, I'm terrified,
you know what I mean?
- No, it's true.
- Because people are just a little too harsh to each
other on those social media apps, you know?
- You and I have joked about 'Game of Thrones' in the past.
You gave me grief once for never watching 'Game of Thrones.'
Thankfully, I finally caught up with it before it all ended.
- Oh my god. - You'll be happy to know.
- Good.
- But since our chats,
there are so many 'Game of Thrones' folks in the MCU.
You know, we've got Richard Madden, Peter Dinklage,
we've got Kit Harington.
Emilia Clarke's in a new show.
- My brother from another mother, right?
Richard Madden.
- That's right, that's right.
So who do you want to mix it up with?
As a 'Game of Thrones' fan, is there one of these actors
that you'd like to share a scene
with in an upcoming MCU project?
- Oh my gosh.
You know what, did you like Edgar Wright's film?
- [Josh] Yeah.
'Last Night in Soho.'
- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - [Josh] Absolutely.
That was interesting, right?
That was unbelievable.
And that was the older lady was from 'Game of Thrones.'
- I know.
It was her last performance, too.
- And she was amazing in it.
I was so blown away by her.
It's sad, you know, it's like,
she just comes to my mind, you know?
So yeah.
- Diana Rigg, the late great Diana Rigg.
Absolutely.
We also have joked in the past about you as Luke Skywalker.
Now the good news is Luke Skywalker came back.
- Oh yeah, you made me do that terrible audition, and
everybody has never let me -
Like, they were actually thinking
that was, like, a real audition, but kind of funny anyway.
Brilliant.
- Did I contribute to you not getting the return role?
I mean, the good news is Luke Skywalker came back
but Mark Hamill played it again.
Come, give him a break.
- Let me just tell you, OK?
I have not been cast as Luke Skywalker.
And if that was their moment to see me in it,
we didn't get it.
(laughing)
We didn't do well, so.
So, there was that.
- Have you let go of that dream?
Are you OK?
- You know, it's such a wild thing to even speculate about.
Because it's so out of my league, in this, you know,
in terms of the decisions behind something like that,
I don't even think about it, but like I always say,
you know, it's nice to see that people
who embrace that character have embraced me,
you know, along with it.
And because 'Star Wars' is very specific.
It's like, you know, you gotta really get it right.
And I think obviously, I mean, I love 'The Mandalorian.'
I did see that,
but I think there's some catching up I have to do there too.
- Here's the portion of the conversation
you can say nothing about,
but I can't imagine a Captain America movie with
Anthony Mackie in it that doesn't have
a place for my buddy Sebastian Stan.
(laughing)
What say you?
- You know, I love our banter.
I mean, he and I have to do something with you again,
like, we have to figure something out.
But I think he's going to be fine on his own.
I think he's got it.
You know, he's going to be all right.
So I'm proud of him.
I want to see what happens.
- Let's get reflective for a second.
You're turning 40 this year, my friend.
- Correct.
- Let's look back at the thirties.
I mean, like, your thirties,
did it exceed every career aspiration?
I mean, are you a guy that is goal driven?
Like, look back from me for a second.
- I was definitely a late bloomer, I think.
(laughing)
You know, emotionally and mentally,
it took me a little while,
you know, to kind of process things.
I don't miss my twenties.
I don't look back at any of that.
You know, it was like, the last five years
or so have really been very
interesting, and you do get closer.
You're asking different questions.
You're, you know, you're processing things differently.
You're more aligned, you know, with what you want.
And I do believe that, you know,
there has to be goals.
You got to, even small goals.
It's always about a day at a time.
You know, it's like, you might not see the progress
that's being invested for a long time,
but as long as you're doing - whatever
you're doing in that day, you know, is what defines you.