-Welcome to the show. -It's great to be here.
Uh, a few months ago, for many people,
your name did not exist in their minds at all in any way,
and now you are a superstar,
especially for many young people,
because of your views in and around tax
and the super wealthy around the world.
How did you come to this from-from what you do?
Because you're a... you're a historian.
-Yeah, yeah. -In fact, you are a Dutch historian.
I'm a Dutch historian.
That's how everyone refers to you-- "the Dutch historian."
I think, you know, I'm really part of a...
of a much wider movement, you know, a whole new generation
that thinks that we need to move on to... to new ideas.
And basically, that realize that we need
a massive transformation of our economy, so...
And I was just in a place, at the World Economic Forum,
where usually not many people get to go there,
and was just one of the few people there,
-I mean, talking common sense. -Right. We actually have
a clip, um, that went viral.
If we can play that right now?
Almost no one raises the real issue of tax avoidance, right?
And of the rich just not paying their fair share.
I mean, it feels like I'm at a firefighters conference,
and no one's allowed to speak about water.
This is not rocket science.
I mean, we can talk for a very long time
about all these stupid philanthropy schemes.
We can invite Bono once more, but come on, it's...
we got to be talking about taxes.
That's it-- taxes, taxes, taxes.
All the rest is bullshit, in my opinion.
So, this was-- to give people context--
this was you sitting with the richest people in the world.
-Yeah. -And you were... you were... -(laughter)
you were actually supposed to be there to talk about just, like,
the other aspects of your book,
-like universal basic income, et cetera, -Yeah.
and you surprised everyone with that.
-They were not happy. -They didn't really like that, no.
-(laughter) -I was, I mean,
I was supposed to go there and promote my book,
talk about universal basic income,
-Yes. -which has become a really popular idea.
But, you know, during the conference,
I became more and more uncomfortable,
uh, because you can talk about all sorts of issues there.
Feminism, participation, equality.
But then no one raises the "T" word.
Right? You're not...
-People don't really talk about taxes... -Yes.
So, I-I just went to my hotel room
and prepared this short speech.
And I got the question from-from the moderator
and basically ignored his question
and, uh, went ahead.
(laughter)
Since that...
since that little, um, moment in Davos,
have you noticed a few private jets following you now?
-Have you, uh... -(laughter)
Because it seems like something that...
that would piss a lot of really, really wealthy people off,
-that idea of them paying more tax and them avoiding it. -Yeah.
Why do you think that's more important
or should be, like, one of the main conversations
apart from transparency and equality and philanthropy?
Well, you know, I'm a historian, right?
So, um, if I see someone like, say, President Trump
talk about, "We should make America great again,"
wants to go back to the '50s or something like that,
I'm like, "Yeah, well, maybe that's a good idea."
Because in the '50s,
we had much higher tax rates for the rich.
In fact, a billionaire like Trump
-would pay, like, 90% of marginal tax rate. -Right.
Uh, the estate tax was over 70% for people like Trump.
So, uh, yeah. I mean, make America great again.
Bring back those higher tax rates.
-That would be my slogan. -Do you...
(cheering and applause)
There are... there are many people
who'd argue against you and say to you,
"Yeah, I mean, you say you want to raise taxes on the wealthy,
"but the wealthy are already paying
"their fair share of taxes.
"People are paying almost 50% of what they earn.
Isn't that fair?" How do you respond to them?
You know, there's this whole boring debate in this country
about, you know, capitalism versus socialism.
Um, for my perspective, it sounds a bit ridiculous.
Like, we're talking about ideas like Medicare for all.
70% of all Americans is in favor of that.
Higher taxes on the rich. 75% is in favor of that.
-Right. -So it's utterly mainstream.
And I know that sort of the standard response here
is always, "Oh, that sounds like communism.
That sounds like Venezuela."
But it's not communism. It's common sense.
Right? It's-it's what most people support.
(applause)
Let me... let me ask you this.
One of the things I know get...
that gets thrown at me all the time is people go,
"Oh, you raise the taxes, and everyone's gonna leave."
Because, I mean, you know, if you...
if you raise the taxes for the rich,
then the rich are gonna go live in countries
where they don't have to pay as much tax.
And then you've lost all of those incomes,
and you've lost all of those people in your country.
Well, America's the most powerful country in the world.
You know, it could easily crack down on tax paradises,
-like Holland, where I'm from, right? -Right.
We're one of the main tax paradises
for American corporations.
So, you know, that's really a matter
of-of political will, I guess.
Just them being willing to say,
"Hey, we're gonna tax you no matter where you go,
-no matter what you do." -Yeah. Yeah.
It's interesting that you-you fight for these ideas
when you come from Europe.
People would say to you, "But-but, Rutger,
you come from a country where things are great."
You do have all of these services.
People are not struggling as much as they are
in other parts of the world.
-Why is it so important to you, then? -Mm-hmm.
Well, I mean, the American debate
is incredibly influential back in Holland, right?
So, uh, and we've got rising inequality in Europe, as well.
-Right. -Uh, and the welfare state that is under pressure.
But, I mean, it's also true
that if I look at a debate, right--
Medicare for all, for example--
America is the only country in the rich world
that doesn't have it.
And still it has the most expensive health care system,
and life expectancy is going down.
So, yeah, that seems pretty ridiculous.
You have a bunch of ideas that many people
would consider ridiculous, depending on their age,
and I find a lot of young people genuinely love as genius.
-Mm-hmm. -Um, Utopia for Realists is the book
that you wrote, and it's come back into prominence again
because you-you-- It's just, like, a fun read.
You talk about all of these ideas
and how they could actually be implemented,
which is interesting. It's not just the ideas.
Universal basic income, uh, open borders, 15-hour workweek.
Really, just-- I mean, this is, like, a book--
This is like Freddy Krueger for a GOP person.
This is-- this is like nightmare stories.
-That's what this is. Um... -Yeah. Indeed. They just need
a picture of Rupert Murdoch reading my book.
I actually did-- I did see that. We have that picture.
-Rupert Murdoch. -Yeah. (laughing)
NOAH: Like, how do you feel about-- That--
There is-- there is one of the people you're speaking about.
I-I framed it, obviously. It's, uh-- it's a wonderful picture.
-Yeah. -Like, when you talk about these issues,
-like universal basic income, for instance, -Mm-hmm.
seems like a-a crazy idea.
-Yeah. -You're just gonna pay people to not work?
-Then why would anyone work? -Yeah.
Well, what n-not many people know, actually,
is that, if you go back to the '60s, almost everyone believed--
all the experts believed-- that some form of basic income
was going to be implemented in the United States.
And it was actually Richard Nixon, of all people,
who had a bill for a modest basic income
that got through the House of Representatives twice
and was only killed in the Senate by Democrats,
not because they didn't like the idea
of completely eradicate po-- eradicating poverty
but because they wanted a higher basic income.
So it's-it's a pretty bizarre history,
-uh, that I've, you know, describe in the book. -Wow.
Uh, another-another bizarre thing is that, actually,
there were major trials with basic income
in the U.S. back then. You know, thousands of families
-received a basic income just to test what would happen. -Yes.
Turns out it was really effective.
You know, health care costs went down, crime went down,
kids did much better in school.
But then there was one problematic finding,
is that they also found that the divorce rates went up,
you know, quite a lot.
Because a lot of women were like,
"Okay, I'm gonna leave that-that asshole."
-(laughs) And, uh... -(cheering and applause)
Um...
But then-- but then only conservatives, obviously,
said, "Okay, we don't want basic income anymore.
This is gonna make women much too independent."
Right? It was only ten years later
that they found out that they had-had made
a statistical mistake. So, in reality,
the divorce rate did not go up.
-Oh, man. -It's-it's a pretty bizarre history,
-full of, uh... -Let me-- let me ask you this then.
As-as a historian who is basing your argument
on things that have actually happened,
does it frustrate you when you see politicians like Trump,
um, I guess, misstating their plans
based on a history that they-- that they don't seem
-to understand themselves? Because, like you said, -Mm-hmm.
Trump says, "We're gonna do it the way it was."
But then when you propose the way it was, he's like,
"No, I-I don't like that."
Do you think that, as people, in general,
we just don't know enough about our histories?
Well, what frustrates me the most are these people,
these so-called moderates, the centrists, who say,
"Oh, that's never gonna happen, you know? That is too radical."
-Right. -Uh, if you zoom out a little bit,
you see that, so many times in history,
utopian fantasies have become reality.
-Um, I think that's important to keep in mind. -Such as?
-You know, d-democracy was once a crazy idea, right? -Right.
The end of slavery was once a total fantasy.
It all happened. But it never starts in the center.
It always happens-- starts in the fringes,
with people who are first dismissed as radical,
as crazy, as-as lunatics, right?
So, uh, I guess we got to be a bit unreasonable sometimes.
You have to be unreasonable to move the conversation forward.
The 15-hour workweek is probably my favorite part of your book.
How-how does that even begin to work?
Yeah. Well, it g-goes back to a very old idea, actually,
of the-the economist John Maynard Keynes.
He wrote this essay in 1930 that,
you know, sort of make two predictions.
The first prediction was,
-we're gonna be a lot richer in the future. -Mm-hmm.
Right? If we don't make stupid mistakes
-like start another world war... -Right.
or have austerity during times of crisis.
Well, we did that. But anyway...
We'll be a lot richer, and then we'll use that wealth
to work a little bit less each year.
And, um, then he just extrapolated
and said, we'll have a 15-hour work week in 2030.
The fascinating thing again, from the historical perspective
is that up until the '70s, you know,
we were on track to-to make it.
You know, the work week was shrinking
and shrinking and shrinking.
And the experts were predicting that the biggest challenge
of the future was gonna be boredom.
It's only around 1980 that,
you know, throughout the developed world,
we've been starting to working more and more,
and we've been keeping on inventing these jobs
-that don't really need to exist. -Right.
Right? So people sitting in offices sending...
sending e-mails all day to people they don't really like,
-and writing reports no one's... -(laughter)
no one's ever gonna read, right? So, uh, that's what they...
The-the academic term is "bullshit jobs." Um...
-(laughter) -Um... yeah. -Yes. Yeah.
Yeah, it's just like basically, you just sit there,
and then, you're just like, "To whom it may concern. Reply all.
"As per my last e-mail.
-Etcetera, etcetera." -There you go.
-Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. -Yes, I... That's half of my day.
-Yeah. But then the fascinating... -Um...
The fascinating thing is is that most of these jobs,
you know, are people who have wonderful résumés, you know.
-Yes. -Who went to great universities
and have wonderful job titles.
But then, still, at the end of the day, they-they're like,
"Mm, you know what? I could go on strike,
and no one would notice."
Um, so in the book, I've got this story of two strikes
-that happened in-in in the '60s. -Yes.
The first strike was of garbage collectors, New York, 1968.
Lost it for six days.
State of emergency had to be declared.
-Turns out, we can't do without garbage collectors. -Right.
So, at the point I wondered-- has it ever happened, you know,
in history that the bankers went on strike?
So I started looking.
You know, looked to the past 5,000 years basically,
since the invention of money, and I found only one example.
And this was in Ireland, uh, 1970.
The bankers were angry that their wages were not keeping up
with inflation, so they said,
"You know what? You'll have it.
"We're gonna go on strike,
and then you'll see just how important we are."
And all the experts were like,
"Oh, this is gonna be a disaster.
It's gonna be a heart attack for the economy."
And then from one day to the other day,
85% of the money supply was not accessible anymore.
Then...
Nothing much happened actually, so, um...
-(laughter) -The strike lasted for six months in the end.
and after six months, the bankers came back and said,
"All right, all right, all right, we'll get back to work."
-(laughter) -And, uh, I think
this is another example where history just makes you rethink,
right, who are the real wealth creators
-in this... in this country? -Right. Right.
Is... Does wealth really...?
You know, is it really created at the top,
and then, does it trickle down?
Or maybe it's the other way around, and...
Are the teachers and the garbage collectors
and the nurses-- are they the real wealth creators?
Wow. That's powerful, man. Um...
Let me ask you this as an historian.
If we don't take these concepts seriously,
if we don't think about how we protect workers
and not the jobs themselves,
if we don't think about how to get people
paying their fair share of taxes,
how we, uh, stop people avoiding tax,
-which is a huge issue... -Mm-hmm.
...what do you then worry would happen based on history?
Well, what I worry about the most is-is... if...
about the moments when people just don't have hope anymore
for-for a better future, right?
So my frustration, a couple of years ago
when I started writing this book was that I saw so many people,
you know, young people or people who call themselves progressives
-who only knew what they were against, right? -Right.
Against austerity, against racism,
against homophobia, against all these things.
And, yes, I'm against them, as well,
-but you also have to know what you're actually for. -Right.
And that's why I'm so excited
that you see this whole movement now
of, indeed, younger people,
who come up with all these fascinating new ideas.
Sometimes old ideas, sometimes new ideas,
-like the... the Green New Deal. -Uh-huh.
Um, that's what excites me the most, because we need hope.
Wow. Thank you for being on the show, man.
-Really great having you on. -Thank you very much. Thank you.
Utopia for Realists is a really fascinating read.
It's available now. Rutger Bregman, everybody.