- Did you see the type of songs that you wrote evolve
or change at all when you changed your method
for how you put them together, when you went to freestyle,
and versus writing them down?
- Yeah, I think so.
I think 'cause when you're writing things down,
you stop the stream. (snaps fingers)
Versus, you know, when you're just thinking about it,
you give yourself that time to think about it.
And as songwriters,
we make ourselves emotionally available to everybody.
We go into a room.
We have no idea what someone's
gonna wanna talk about that day.
So we have to always just be emotionally open,
which makes it nice,
because then when you're writing for yourself,
you're already emotionally open.
You know how to tap into it, and you know how to get there.
- Julia, you were born in Iowa,
but you moved to L.A. at a young age.
Still got a lot of family in Iowa.
How old were you when you moved to L.A.?
- I was about 4, I think, when I moved to Iowa,
but my mom actually moved back when I was 16.
So I was going back every summer and every Christmas
to be with her.
But yeah, raised in California.
- [Dometi] What was your childhood like?
- It was interesting.
Yeah.
(Dometi laughs) It was pretty simple.
I mean, music was always around in our house.
My dad was very into classic rock.
My mom was very into country.
My sister really loved Lauryn Hill and Whitney Houston,
and then I grew up, born in '93,
but really grew up in the 2000s,
when I really got to understand what music was.
And so I grew up with Britney Spears and Spice Girls
and NSYNC and Christina [Aguilera], and that kind of thing.
Music was always very big in our house.
- And your dad had aspirations
in the entertainment industry as well.
Didn't he?
- He originally said that he thought he was supposed
to move to California for himself,
and then later realized that he was sort of destined
to be here for me.
That's what he always says, which is very kind.
I appreciate that very much, even if it's a lie.
- I wanna say he changed his last name as well, too.
And that's the stage name that you use right now?
- Yeah, so my dad is Mexican and Puerto Rican,
and my dad moved to L.A. to be an actor.
Some dumbass agency told him
that he should think about changing his name,
so that he could get more Americanized roles.
So my dad's name is Juan Manuel Cavazos,
and he changed it to Johnny Michaels.
And when I started songwriting, I took Michaels
because Cavazos is not an easy one to pronounce.
And a lot of people, when they see it on paper,
put the emphasis in different places, and it bothers me.
So Michaels it was.
- What kind of songs were you writing early on?
- I was homeschooled, so I didn't have a lot of friends.
So I was writing what you would think a homeschooled,
angsty teenager was writing, songs about heartbreak,
which I didn't understand at the time, 'cause just whatever.
I didn't really have a lot of people,
so I made music sort of my friend
and the thing that I confided in,
and I still do that to this day.
- At what point did music become something
that you realized,
"OK, this is something I'm gonna do with my life?"
- I did a theme song for a Disney Channel show.
I remember my dad being like,
you know, maybe you should go to college
and figure out what you wanna do.
And I'm like, but I love music.
And when I got that theme song, when I was 17,
I was homeschooled.
I was in a charter school,
and I remember all I needed was math to pass.
And I was in my algebra class, and I got the call,
and I basically mic-dropped out of class,
and my dad never said anything
to me ever again about college.
So I was like, I made it! Even though I was 17 years old.
It was ridiculous.
- Were there any things that you learned about the business,
having started out that young,
that kind of informed how you would navigate the business
throughout the latter part of your career?
- I had a lot of mentors. Not a lot, I had two.
I had one that I would work with really early on,
who I did the theme song with, a woman named Joleen Belle.
And then after her, I met a woman named Lindy Robbins,
and I had all my early success with her when I was 19.
We did "Miss Movin' On" from Fifth Harmony.
We did a song called "Fire Starter" for Demi [Lovato],
and we did a song called "Slow Down" for Selena [Gomez].
And they were some
of the first songs we had ever written together.
I always had a lot of really strong,
talented, smart women around me.
And I still do. My entire team is women.
There's always ageism, there's always sexism,
especially when you're 19 and you're
going into these rooms with 40-year-old men.
And they're like, what are you working on?
You're like, myself. Like, what, you know?
I am a very vulnerable person.
I am innately emotional,
and I need people around me that understand that
and aren't gonna try and divert me into doing something
that isn't me.
- At what point did you begin to sing these songs,
and start working on your voice as a songstress,
as a vocalist?
When did that transition happen?
- That transition really happened when I wrote "Issues."
♪ I'm jealous, I'm overzealous ♪
♪ When I'm down I get real down ♪
♪ When I'm high I don't come down ♪
I never really had plans to be an artist.
And I think that really just comes with
the fact that I'm deeply insecure,
and had written "Issues" about an ex-boyfriend that I'd had
that was a producer, and the day I wrote "Issues"
was the day "Sorry" went No. 1 on Billboard.
It was the first time that ever happened to me.
I think I was 23 years old. It was huge.
I mean, this is what every songwriter strives for.
It's massive.
And he did not let me feel that that day. He was angry.
He was upset with me.
He was like, "That should have been me"
- Hmm. - And I went to
the studio that day.
I was crying. I was so defeated and so sad.
And I was with Benny Blanco and Stargate
and Justin [Tranter] at the time.
And they were like, they were celebrating "Same Old Love,"
'cause it had gone No. 1 on pop radio at the same time.
And they were like, guys, let's just celebrate.
Let's have a good day, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So I had "Issues" written down in my phone,
and that's what we did that day.
♪ 'Cause I got issues, but you got 'em too ♪
♪ So give 'em all to me and I'll give mine to you ♪
That's why it was so personal for me that the idea
of giving it to somebody else was just unfathomable.
And that was really the start of it.
- Did you know, once you recorded this,
that it would be that,
or was this just a song that you were doing for you
to process the day that you just had?
- I think the reason it resonated with so many people
was because it was so different at the time.
There weren't a lot of people being that,
I guess, that blunt, but I also don't give a (bleep),
and I'm so (bleep), like, here I am.
I mean, if you listen to all my EPs and my album,
I really do just spill it out on the table,
all my flaws and insecurities
and the things I wish I could change about myself.
- So now, let's go to 'Nervous System,'
where that is Julia Michaels.
That is your music.
- [Julia] Yes. - Those are your emotions.
Did the success of "Issues" inform your approach
to songwriting for the rest of the songs on that EP?
- I was working with Mattman & Robin and Justin Tranter.
We just were having such a good time
and just writing about everything.
Really, I was writing about my (bleep) ex-boyfriend,
and just was really in that headspace,
and yeah, I mean, that's it, really.
- That headspace would eventually take you
to 'Inner Monologues,'
and what strikes me about it is,
not only is it music that is deeply personal,
but even the title conveys
that this is a conversation you're having with yourself,
yet you're open enough to share this reflective,
introspective conversation with the world.
Are you ever nervous about being so vulnerable
on a public platform?
Does that ever give you anxiety?
- You know, I don't shy away from things
that are real for me
because I feel like there has to be some sort
of like-minded human being out there in the world
that understands what I'm going through.
I'm surrounded by people that feel the same way,
that have anxiety, that have depression,
that have been through a lot of emotional turmoil.
And we get to go to these shows
and we get to scream it out and cry it out
and bear it all and hug each other.
And it's just a beautiful thing.
- What made you decide
to name the album 'Not in Chronological Order?'
- Because I'm a songwriter,
everybody always thinks I'm gonna have a deep meaning
for everything, but I really,
I called it 'Not in Chronological Order,'
or 'NICO' for short, because it really is not
in chronological order in terms of life events.
I used to think I could only write a good love song
if it was derived from toxicity.
- Hmm.
- And now I know that I can write
a good love song rooted in love.
I wrote a song called "Little Did I Know" with my boyfriend,
and it was the first artist session I had had in months
because of the pandemic.
And I had put so much pressure on myself
and I really wanted it to work out,
and it just ended up not being very good.
I was really rusty, and everyone sort of,
we had our training wheels on.
We all sorta forgot how to do things.
And I just felt so defeated.
And I remember being in bed with him, and I was just like,
I need to write something, and I need to do it for myself.
And we started that song.
He was sitting on the edge of the bathtub.
I was standing in the bathroom.
We were in a park,
actually the park where we had our first date.
We went to his old studio. We were at the course there.
And it was really beautiful, because, again,
I had not written a love song with the person
that I love in the way that we wrote it.
And it just was so freeing.
It was just very eye-opening for me, too.
I don't know what I did to deserve this man.
He's great.
And I don't wanna give him all the praise,
'cause then if two years later, he breaks up with me,
I'm gonna be really (bleep) sad,
(Dometi laughs) but he's so patient with me
in the studio, and we both have such a mutual respect
for each other's craft.
The first day we met, we wrote "If the World Was Ending."
I slid into his DMs.
I was like, I think you're super talented,
I'd love to write with you.
And he was like, yeah, me too.
And if the first song we ever wrote together
got us a Grammy nomination, we should probably keep writing.
And so, since then, we wrote "All Your Exes" together.
We wrote "Little Did I Know" together,
and we actually wrote his first single,
"Like That," together.
We work really well together.
I think it really just boils down
to us really having so much respect for each other.
- He does make a brief appearance
in the "Little Did I Know" video.
The video is all of the things, it's intense.
It's erotic. It's dark, it's stormy.
It's a lot going on.
What was the inspiration behind those visuals?
- "Little Did I Know," I think,
is probably one of my favorite songs I've ever written.
♪ But little did I know ♪
♪ You would be the one I confide in ♪
♪ Learn how to try with ♪
♪ Little did I know ♪
I really wanted to make a video for it,
and originally, I'd had this idea for a maze,
where I was sort of going through a maze of ex-lovers,
and you were seeing sort of scenes, I guess,
of just things that I've experienced in love,
and going through all these sort of dark corners,
and then coming out to this sort of light, essentially,
and coming out to JP.
when I met Blythe Thomas,
who is an incredible director and so collaborative,
this was the first time that I had actually had ideas,
and felt comfortable telling somebody my ideas.
She was just so wonderful with me.
And she was like, what if we did do a maze,
but what if we do it much simpler?
And I was like, great.
I showed up on set. There was this huge bed of sand.
There was this mirror in front of me.
And there were these figures behind me.
And essentially the music video is saying,
I'm looking at these figures, or I could go forward,
and the figures sort of represent my past.
And I could confront my past if I want to, but why?
Why?
I should keep moving forward.
And there was something really intense
that day that happened, which was,
I was singing these words to myself,
"Little did I know
you could be the one that would save me
and learn how to change me,
little did I know it was you,"
and I don't think I'd ever been that kind to myself.
So singing to myself that day
in the mirror was really emotional, super emotional.
And I had to take breaks in between
because I'd never looked at myself and said,
hey, you need to love yourself too. Don't forget.
And it took making that video that day
to really talk to myself, talk myself through it, I guess,
'cause I had always like equated that love to JP,
and that day, I really equated it to myself.
It was a really beautiful moment.
- What would the Julia Michaels looking at that mirror say
to the Julia Michaels from 'Inner Monologues?'
- Oh boy. I guess I would just say,
and this is gonna sound so cliché,
but don't be so (bleep) hard on yourself, you know?
- [Dometi] Hmm.
- It's OK.
You can have these feelings. You can have big feelings.
When I had this ex, I call him Voldemort, actually,
which is very fun.
- He who shall not be named. - When I had Voldemort
in my life, he used to make me feel bad for having anxiety,
bad for being emotional, bad for being needy,
bad for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, X, Y, Z.
And I think if I were to look at myself like,
hey, it's OK to be needy. It's OK to want love.
It's OK. You are good enough.
And I think that's a big part of this album, you know?
I used to think that I wasn't good enough for love,
or that I deserved a certain type of love
because of the way that I talk to myself.
And I used to tell people,
don't settle for anything less
than you think that you deserve,
but what if you think you deserve trash, you know?
What if you think you just deserve (bleep) nothing?
Real love can be passionate without it being damaging,
it can be beautiful, and it can be easy and uncomplicated.
And I wish I could tell myself that then,
but I know that now.
- What do you want your legacy to be?
- I would like to go down in history as somebody
that really cared about music,
someone that really cared about lyricism,
someone that really cares about songs and songwriting,
someone that really cares about women
and the way that they're (bleep) treated
in this industry sometimes.
I definitely see a lot of talks about women
in the music industry, and being for women,
but nobody actually does things for women.
But yeah, I don't know.
I wanna go down as somebody that just really cares
about music and really cares about songs.