♪ ♪ ♪ >> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY.
WELCOME BACK.
WE'RE HERE WITH THE AUTHOR OF "BAG MAN," RACHEL MADDOW.
WELL, THAT SORT OF GRIFTING FOR HIS POSTPRESIDENTIAL CAREER IS
JUST ANOTHER FORM OF CORRUPTION.
THERE'S SOME DEBATE GOING ON AS TO WHETHER THERE SHOULD BE
INVESTIGATIONS INTO THE ADMINISTRATION AFTER HE LEAVES
OFFICE, WHETHER THAT'S THE BEST THING FOR THE COUNTRY.
WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE INDICTMENTS OF ANYONE IN THE
ADMINISTRATION, OR THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF, OR HIS CHILDREN,
WOULDN'T IT BE NICE JUST TO KNOW, THOUGH?
WOULDN'T IT BE NICE-- WHAT ARE THE LOOSE ENDS YOU'D MOST LIKE
TO KNOW ABOUT?
>> OH, LIKE TRUMP MYSTERIES THAT NEVER GOT RUN DOWN?
>> Stephen: YES, YES.
>> OH, THERE IS SO MANY.
( LAUGHS ).
>> Stephen: THE TAXES, OF COURSE, IS ONE GOOD ONE.
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: YOU'VE BEEN CHASING THAT DRAGON FOR A WHILE.
>> YES.
I WANT TO KNOW-- YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF FINANCIAL
THINGS ABOUT THE PRESIDENT THAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, INCLUDING,
YOU KNOW, WHY HIS GOLF COURSES MAKE FINANCIAL SENSE WHEN ALL
THEY DO IS LOSE MONEY, BUT HE WAS ABLE TO PAY FOR THEM IN CASH
AND NOBODY KNOWS WHERE HE GOT THE CASH FROM TO PAY FOR THEM.
>> Stephen: WHO DOES HE OH, $415 MILLION TO?
>> EXACTLY.
THERE IS ALSO THE SMALLER STUFF.
THE PRESIDENT IS "INDIVIDUAL 1" IN THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW
YORK, WHERE HIS LAWYER, MICHAEL COHEN, ACTUALLY DID PRISON TIME
FOR THE CAMPAIGN FINANCE VIOLATIONS AROUND THAT WHOLE
HUSH MONEY PAYMENT THING.
THOSE PROSECUTORS DESCRIBED THE PRESIDENT AS HAVING BEEN THE
PERSON WHO DIRECTED THE COMMISSION OF THOSE FELONIES AND
WHO BENEFITTED FROM THEM.
>> Stephen: UNINDICTED COCONSPIR SOR.
>> LITERALLY, AN UNINDICTED CO
CONSPIRATOR.
I'M SEWER INTERESTED IN THE QUESTION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT IF
THOSE PROSECUTORS, IF THEY WANT TO, WHETHER THEY WILL BE ALLOWED
INDEPENDENTLY TO PURSUE THE PERSON WHO DIRECTED THE
COMMISSION OF THOSE FELONIES SINCE THEY ALREADY PUT SOMEBODY
ELSE IN PRISON FOR IT.
BUT THERE ARE ALL THESE OTHER MYSTERIES INSPECT.
WHY DID-- WHY DID THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN SHARE INTERNAL
POLLING DATA WITH A RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE OFFICER?
I DON'T KNOW.
>> Stephen: COULD BE FOR ANY NUMBER OF REASONS.
>> WHO AMONG US HASN'T.
>> Stephen: IT'S A GREAT PICK-UP LINE.
SPEAK OF CORRUPTION, I WANT TO GET TO YOUR NEW BOOK, "BAG MAN:
THE WILD CRIMES, AUDACIOUS COVER-UP, AND SPECTACULAR
DOWNFALL OF A BRAZEN CROOK IN THE WHITE HOUSE."
AND IT'S NOT WHO YOU THINK, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
TELL THE PEOPLE WHO THIS IS ABOUT.
>> THIS IS ABOUT RICHARD NIXON'S VICE PRESIDENT, SPIRO AGNEW, WHO
WAS THE ONLY VICE PRESIDENT TO HAVE EVER BEEN RUN OUT OF OFFICE
ON A RAIL.
AND HE LITERALLY HAD TO RESIGN HIS OFFICE MINUTES BEFORE HE
PLED NO LO CONTENDRE, PLED NO CONTEST TO A CHARGE IN A
COURTROOM.
AND THE WHOLE SCHEME BY WHICH HE AVOIDED PRISON TIME AND WAS
ALLOWED TO RESIGN FOR HIS CRIMES, RATHER THAN FACE PRISON
TIME, AND THAT WAS TO KEEP HIM FROM BECOMING PRESIDENT.
IT'S SORT OF AN UNTOLD STORY BECAUSE IT WAS SO OVERSHADOWED
BY WATERGATE BUT I AM COMPLETELY OBSESSED WITH THIS STORY.
AND I THINK IT HAS LOTS OF TRAILING ENDS THAT BRING US
THROUGH TO TODAY.
>> Stephen: IT REMINDS YOU-- HIS STORY REMINDS YOU THAT THE
TERM "BAG MAN" LITERALLY COMES FROM BAGS OF MONEY.
>> YES.
>> Stephen: I ACTUALLY-- I ACTUALLY KNOW STORIES FROM
PEOPLE WHO DID CONSTRUCTION IN BALTIMORE IN THE 1960s AND
50s.
AND GOING IN TO GET YOUR PERMITTING, YOU HAD TO GET PAST
SPIRO AGNEW.
AND HE WOULD LITERALLY SAY, "WE'VE GOT A FEW PROBLEMS WITH
YOUR PLAN," AND HE WOULD LEAVE THE OFFICE, OPEN HIS DRAWERS,
WALK OUT, AND COME BACK IN AND HE WOULD SEE-- IF THERE WAS NO
CASH IN THE DRAWER, HE WOULD SAY, "WE STILL HAVE A FEW
PROBLEMS WITH YOUR PERMIT."
THERE'S A LEGACY OF SPIRO AGNEW'S CORRUPTION AND HIS
RELATIONSHIP WITH RICHARD NIXON THAT LASTS TO THIS DAY AND HAS
ACTUALLY INFLUENCED THE LAST FOUR YEARS OF THE INVESTIGATIONS
INTO THIS PRESIDENT.
IT'S FASCINATING.
EXPLAIN TO THE PEOPLE WHY HE ACTUALLY KIND OF PUTS OUR OWN
JUSTICE SYSTEM IN A BIND WHEN IT COMES TO THE PRESIDENT.
>> AGNEW IS THE LAST GUY BEFORE TRUMP WHERE THERE'S PROSECUTORS
INVESTIGATING CRIME.
THEY IDENTIFY THE PERP, THE GUY'S IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
AND THEY HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT.
AND IN AGNEW'S CASE, THEY HAD TO DECIDE AT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT
WHETHER OR NOT HE COULD BE INDICTED.
AND HIS LAWYERS ARGUED THAT HE COULDN'T BE INDICTED.
HE COULD ONLY BE IMPEACHED.
AGNEW ACTUALLY WENT TO THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE AT THE TIME
AND ASKED TO BE IMPECHED.
PLEASE INVESTIGATE ME AND IMPEACH ME.
HE THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE A GREAT IDEA.
HE THOUGHT THAT WOULD PUT OFF THE PROSPECT OF BEING INDICTED.
BUT NIXON WHO HAS A COMPLETELY OTHER SCANDAL-- WATERGATE IS A
TOTAL OTHER THING FOR WHICH HE THINKS HE'S GOING TO LOSE
OFFICE-- HE DOESN'T WANT THE WHEELS OF IMP PECHMENT TO START
AROUND AGNEW BECAUSE THEY THINK IT WILL TURN AROUND AND IMPEACH
HIM.
HE SAID I WANT YOU TO LOOK INTO THIS, AND WHAT I WANT YOU TO
FIND IS THAT AGNEW DEFINITELY CAN BE INDICTED, SO HE DOESN'T
GET IMPEACHED.
BUT I CAN'T BE INDICTED AT ALL.
COULD YOU DECIDE THAT, PLEASE.
AND BECAUSE OF THAT SORT OF DIFFERENCE OF INTEREST BETWEEN
NIXON AND AGNEW, AND BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT THEY HATED EACH
OTHER AND WERE BOTH TRYING TO THROW EACH OTHER UNDER THE BUS
AT THAT TIME, AND THEY WERE BOTH FELONS, WE ENDED UP UP WITH THIS
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT POLICY THAT SAYS PRESIDENTS CAN'T BE
INDICTED.
>> Stephen: THAT'S JUST A MEMO FROM MITCHELL'S OFFICE, RIGHT?
THE CONTINUAL AT THE TIME.
>> A MEMO FROM THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL AT THE TIME THAT
THE AGNEW THING IS GETTING FORCED INTO THE COURTS.
AND IT'S BASICALLY A FAVOR TO NIXON AND IT'S A MESS, AND
THERE'S NO SIGN AT ALL-- WE TALKED TO PEOPLE INVOLVED WITH
THAT.
THERE'S NO INDICATION THEY MEANT THAT TO BE A CONTROLLING "GET
OUT OF JAIL FREE" CARD FOR EVERY PRESIDENT WHO CAME AFTER.
BUT IT TURNED INTO ONE.
AND THAT'S WHAT DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN BENEFITING FROM.
THAT'S WHY MUELLER DIDN'T LAY OUT ANY CRIMES TRUMP MIGHT HAVE
COMMITTED.
THAT'S WHY HE WAS "INDIVIDUAL 1" AND AN UNINDICTED COCONSPIRATOR
INSTEAD OF INDICTED IN A HUSH MONEY.
TRUMP ORS THAT HE'S NOT IN PRISON OR UNDER INDICTMENT TO
SPIRO AGNEW.
>> Stephen: THE BOOK IS "BAG MAN.
IT'S AVAILABLE NOW.
SHE IS RACHEL MADDOW.
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH RAPPER MEGAN THEE STALLION.
RACHEL, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.