Voya. Be confident to and through retirement.
>>> THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC IS through retirement.
>>> THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC IS RAPIDLY CHANGING HOW PEOPLE
LIVE.
LIVE. AND IT’S PUTTING NEW PRESSURE ON
PERSONAL BEHAVIOR THAT CAN
AFFECT OTHERS, LIKE WHEN THIS
PANDEMIC FIRST HIT AND A
TENNESSEE MAN WAS BASICALLY
EYEING A BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY,
AS HE VIEWED IT, BUYING UP
17,000 BOTTLES OF HAND SANITIZER
TRYING TO MAKE A PROFIT BY
RESELLING THEM ON AMAZON.
YOU MAY HAVE HEARD ABOUT THE
STORY, WHICH DREW A HUGE
BACKLASH WHICH THEN LED HIM TO
BACK DOWN, DONATE MOST OF THE
STOCKPILE EVEN OFFER A PUBLIC
APOLOGY.
APOLOGY. >> IF BY MY ACTIONS ANYONE WAS
DIRECTLY IMPACTED AND UNABLE TO
GET SANITIZER FROM ONE OF THEIR
LOCAL STORES BECAUSE I PURCHASED
IT ALL, I AM TRULY SORRY FOR
THAT.
THAT. >> NOW NOTICE SOMETHING HERE.
THAT PUBLIC HEALTH DILEMMA WAS
NOT DRESSED BY THE GOVERNMENT OR
THE POLICE.
THE POLICE. THAT MAN WAS NOT FINED OR
ARRESTED.
ARRESTED. HE WAS BASICALLY SWIFTLY
CORRECTED BY PEER PRESSURE.
WE’RE NOW SEEING A SIMILAR
DYNAMIC AS THE WEATHER WARMS UP
AND SOME PUBLIC SPACES ARE
FILLING UP.
FILLING UP. SOME PEOPLE NOW CRITICIZING AND
TRYING TO SHAME PEOPLE WHO
APPEAR TO BE VIOLATING THESE
RULES BOTH ONLINE AND IN PERSON
WITH PUBLIC SHAMING.
THEN OF COURSE THERE ARE THE
EFFORTS TO SHAME THE POWERFUL.
VICE PRESIDENT PENCE LEAVE LEADS
THIS VIRUS TASK FORCE.
HE VISITED THE MAYO TASK FORCE
LAST WEEK WITHOUT WEARING THE
REQUIRED MASK.
REQUIRED MASK. BUT THE SWIFT SHAMING LED HIM TO
SAY HE WAS WRONG AND HE WAS
CONSPICUOUSLY WEAR ONE TWO DAYS
LATER AT A VENTILATOR PLANT.
SO SHAMING CAN WORK.
CAN EVEN FOSTER PUBLIC HEALTH
WHEN DEPLOYED THOUGHTFULLY.
LET’S BE CLEAR.
THERE IS AN OBVIOUS DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN SHAMING A RANDOM
CIVILIAN AND A VERY POWERFUL
OFFICIAL RUNNING VIRUS RESPONSE.
THERE ARE ALSO SOME MORE SUBTLE
DIFFERENCES THAT WE PROBABLY
NEED TO EXPLORE BETWEEN SHAMING,
SAY, EXTREME SWEEPING CONDUCT
LIKE DEPRIVING A WHOLE
NEIGHBORHOOD OF THE NEEDED
SANITIZER VERSUS OVERREACTING TO
A SINGLE PERSON TAKING A WALK ON
THE BEACH.
THE BEACH. NOW RESEARCHERS CALL THE MORE
ENLIGHTENED VERSION CONSTRUCTIVE
SHAMING.
SHAMING. PROFESSOR JENNIFER JACK WHITE IS
A PROFESSOR IN THIS FIELD AND
NOTES IN A FEW U.N. PIECE THAT
SHAMING AN INSTITUTION CAN BE
QUITE EFFECTIVE, WRITING THE
MAYOR OF NEW HAVEN RECENTLY
SHAMED YALE UNIVERSITY, HIS ALMA
MATER FOR REFUSING THE CITY USE
OF THEIR DORMITORIES FOR MEDICAL
FIRST RESPONDERS STRESSING THE
NEARBY UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAVEN
HAD SAID YES IN THE FIRST FIVE
MINUTES.
MINUTES. WAIT FOR IT.
SOON AFTER, YALE REVERSED ITS
DECISION.
DECISION. THAT FROM THE PIECE PUBLIC
SHAMING HAS ONLY JUST BEGUN AND
ITS AUTHOR NYU ENVIRONMENTAL
STUDIES JOINS US RIGHT NOW.
SHE IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF THE
BOOK "IS SHAME NECESSARY?"
AND FOR THE MEDICAL PERSPECTIVE,
WE’RE ALSO JOINED BY DR. MEGAN
RANNEY.
RANNEY. GOOD TO SEE BOTH OF YOU.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING US ON, ARI.
>> THANKS A LOT.
>> SO PROFESSOR JAQUET, LET ME
START WITH YOU IN THIS AREA.
WE WALKED THROUGH SOME OF THE
EXAMPLE, INCLUDING COURTESY OF
YOU.
YOU. WHAT MAKES FOR THE MOST
EFFECTIVE SHAMING FOR PUBLIC
HEALTH?
HEALTH? >> YEAH, THANKS.
I MEAN, THIS IS SUCH A FRUITFUL
TIME FOR SHAME, AND I THINK WE
ALL KNOW HOW COMMON IT IS IN OUR
DAILY LIVES AND HOW
UNCOMFORTABLE IT IS RIGHT NOW.
IT’S REALLY EASY TO SHAME
BEHAVIORS THAT ARE CLEARLY
OBSERVABLE AND WHERE THERE IS A
CLEAR TRANSGRESSION.
CLEAR TRANSGRESSION. SO YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, THE
GATHERINGS OF TEN OR MORE OR THE
SOCIAL DISTANCING OF SIX FEET OR
MORE OR WEARING A MASK AS REALLY
OBVIOUS POINTS OF BEHAVIOR FOR
SHAMING.
SHAMING. AND I THINK YOU POINTED OUT SOME
PEOPLE FEEL LIKE SHAME HAS GONE
TOO FAR IN SOME OF THESE
CIRCUMSTANCES.
CIRCUMSTANCES. THERE CERTAINLY ARE SOME
PROBLEMS THERE, AND I DON’T WANT
TO MINIMIZE THOSE, BUT I THINK
THERE IS A LOT OF OPPORTUNITY
WITH SHAMING, AND YOU’VE MADE
SOME OF THOSE POINTS ALREADY.
BUT THIS IS A LONG FIGHT AND WE
HAVE A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES TO
DELIBERATE.
DELIBERATE. AND WE NEED TO BE THINKING ABOUT
WHO IS LEADING US REALLY INTO
HARM’S WAY ASIDE FROM JUST OUR
NEIGHBORS AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
SO I THINK IT’S UP TO SMART
PEOPLE LIKE YOU, ARI, BUT ALSO,
YOU KNOW, A BROADER CONVERSATION
ABOUT WHO DO WE WANT TO SHINE
THE POLITE SPOTLIGHT ON AND FOR
WHAT PURPOSE, AND HOW EXACTLY.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. AND THAT’S WHAT WE WANT TO DIG
INTO.
INTO. IT’S IMPORTANT WHAT YOU SAY,
PARTICULARLY THE NUANCE, AND THE
DOCTOR WILL WEIGH IN AS WELL.
I WANT TO LOOK AT ONE DRAMATIC
SHAMING EFFORT THAT YOU KIND OF
GOT TO SEE TO BELIEVE.
IT INVOLVES THE GRIM REAPER,
NEVER SOMEONE YOU WANT THE SEE
ON A FLORIDA BEACH WITH THE
SELF-PROCLAIMED ACTIVIST IN GRIM
REAPER CLOTHING.
REAPER CLOTHING. TAKE A LOOK.
>> DANIEL?
>> DANIEL? >> THANK YOU.
I’M HERE TODAY TO TRY TO MAKE A
POINT THAT WE NEED TO -- I THINK
IT’S PREMATURE THAT WE OPEN OUR
BEACHES.
BEACHES. I THINK THAT THE DANGER OF
BRINGING ALL THE PEOPLE HERE TO
OUR AREA AND SPREADING THE
VIRUS, AND I THINK IT’S GOING TO
PROLONG THE RECOVERY WE HAVE.
IT’S TOO SOON.
AND IT’S NOT APPROPRIATE.
>> THANK YOU, DANIEL.
DANIEL IS BEGINNING HIS PROTEST
RIGHT NOW, AND HE IS GOING TO BE
AT A BUNCH OF OTHER WALTON
COUNTY BEACHES THROUGHOUT THE
DAY.
DAY. >> I’LL MENTION FOR VIEWERS WHO
MAY HAVE JUST JOINED US, FACT
CHECK, THAT’S NOT LITERALLY THE
GRIM REAPER, BUT IT WAS SOMEONE
TRYING TO KIND OF DRAMATIZE
THIS.
THIS. AND SO I GUESS FIRST THE
PROFESSOR AND THEN THE DOCTOR.
WHAT IS THE BEST WAY FOR PEOPLE
TO THINK ABOUT WHAT WORKS VERSUS
OVERDOING IT?
OVERDOING IT? >> WELL, I REALLY LIKED THAT
EXAMPLE.
EXAMPLE. IT’S A GREAT ONE TO CHOOSE.
IT’S SHAMING A BROAD SWEEPING
BEHAVIOR RATHER THAN A
PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL.
PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL. SO THERE IS NO CLEAR VICTIM OF
THE SHAMING ON THE OTHER END.
AND IT HAS A KIND OF NICE
ARTISTRY TO IT, A CLEVERNESS.
WE’RE SORT OF CHUCKLING AT IT.
SO I THINK THAT’S REALLY GREAT
AGAIN FOR INFORMING THAT KIND OF
PERSONAL BEHAVIOR.
PERSONAL BEHAVIOR. BUT I’D LIKE TO SEE A LITTLE
MORE STRATEGY IN TERMS OF BIGGER
BANG FOR YOUR BUCK.
I LIKE HOW’D YOU CALLED OUT THE
WHOLE STATE OF GEORGIA RECENTLY
FOR OPENING UP TOO SOON AND
PUTTING ITS CITIZENS AT RISK.
I THINK THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY
AS THE CONGRESSMAN WAS SAYING IN
THE LAST EPISODE.
THEY’RE WANTING TO PUSH A BILL
THROUGH FOR EMERGENCY EXPANSION
OF MEDICAID FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE
LOST THEIR JOB AND HEALTH CARE
AND TO SHAME I THINK POLITICIANS
WHO DON’T SUPPORT THAT BILL IN A
CLEVER WAY, PERHAPS NOT A GRIM
REAPER WAY, BUT SOMETHING OF
THAT ILK.
THAT ILK. AND THAT KIND OF BROAD STRATEGY
THAT WOULD HELP MAYBE THE NATION
AS A WHOLE RATHER THAN JUST A
PARTICULAR BEACH IN FLORIDA.
>> DOCTOR, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
>> SO I THINK THE HISTORY OF
PUBLIC HEALTH MESSAGING SHOWS
THAT SHAMING OR REFRAMING IT,
CHANGING SOCIAL ENORMOUS IS
TREMENDOUSLY EFFECTIVE IN
CHANGING BEHAVIOR.
CHANGING BEHAVIOR. JEREMY FAUST AND I WROTE A PIECE
THAT WAS PUBLISHED IN SLATE
YESTERDAY TALKING ABOUT HOW WE
CAN CHANGE THAT PUBLIC MESSAGING
EFFECTIVELY.
EFFECTIVELY. AND A BIG PART OF IT IS CREATING
A NORMATIVE MEANING AMONG OUR
COMMUNITIES THAT WE EXPECT EACH
OTHER TO BEHAVE APPROPRIATELY,
THAT WE EXPECT EACH OTHER TO
PRACTICE SOCIAL DISTANCING.
WE EXPECT EACH OTHER TO WEAR
MASKS.
MASKS. AND YOU CAN THINK ABOUT THAT ON
THE LEVEL OF LEADERSHIP AS
PROFESSOR JAQUET JUST TALKED
ABOUT.
ABOUT. IT CAN BE ABOUT TRYING THE GET
PENCE OR GOVERNORS TO
DEMONSTRATE THAT THEY TOO WEAR
MASKS WHETHER OR NOT THEY’RE
INFECTED.
INFECTED. BUT IT’S ALSO ABOUT ALL OF US AS
INDIVIDUAL COMMUNITIES HAVING
THOSE DISCUSSIONS AND
REINFORCING WITH EACH OTHER THAT
THAT’S WHAT WE EXPECT EACH OTHER
TO DO.
TO DO. YOU KNOW, YOU CAN THINK ABOUT IT
WITH DRUNK DRIVING.
BACK WHEN I WAS A KID, DRUNK
DRIVING WAS TALKED ABOUT AS BAD,
BUT WE DIDN’T TAKE PEOPLE’S KEYS
AWAY.
AWAY. WE DIDN’T CREATE THAT KIND OF
NORM THAT YOU’RE EXPECTED TO
CALL AN UBER OR LET SOMEONE ELSE
DRIVE.
DRIVE. AND THOSE NORMS CHANGE THANKS TO
PUBLIC MESSAGING, THANKS TO THE
EXAMPLES OF INFLUENCERS AND
CELEBRITIES, BUT ALSO THANKS TO
THE CHANGES WITHIN THE COMMUNITY
WHERE NOW WE WOULD NO LONGER
ACCEPT ONE OF OUR FRIENDS GET IN
A CAR AFTER THEY’VE HAD A LITTLE
TOO MUCH TO DRINK.
AND THAT’S WHAT WE NEED HERE
TOO.
TOO. WE NEED TO PEOPLE NO LONGER
ACCEPT THAT PEOPLE WILL WALK OUT
IN PUBLIC WITHOUT A MASK, OR
THAT THEY’LL GO AND SIT RIGHT
NEXT TO EACH OTHER IF THEY’RE
NOT MEMBERS OF THE SAME
HOUSEHOLD.
HOUSEHOLD. SO CHANGING THE SOCIAL NORMS ARE
CRITICAL FOR CREATING CHANGE AND
PROTECTING OUR COUNTRY.
>> THINKING ABOUT THE HISTORY OF
OTHER SOCIAL MOVEMENTS THAT
INTERSECT WITH MEDICAL SAFETY IS
A GOOD EXAMPLE, DOCTOR.
AND ADDS WE QUOTED, PROFESSOR
JAQUET, I THOUGHT WHAT YOU WROTE
AS WELL ABOUT THE INSTITUTION
STUFF IS IMPORTANT.
THIS SHOULDN’T DEVOLVE INTO A
QUESTION OF PEOPLE JUST POSTING
PICTURES OF OTHER RANDOM PEOPLE
AND BEATING UP ON PEOPLE WHO
HAVE VERY LITTLE AGENCY OR
AUTHORITY RIGHT NOW.
BUT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT A PUBLIC
HEALTH INSTITUTION, A
UNIVERSITY, THE VICE PRESIDENT,
THERE IS A LOT OF AVENUES WHERE
IT CAN BE, AS YOU PUT IT,
CONSTRUCTIVE.
CONSTRUCTIVE. WE’RE JUST STARTING THE
CONVERSATION.
CONVERSATION. I SUSPECT WE WILL BE DISCUSSING
THIS MORE IN THE DAYS AHEAD.