Judy: Attorney general Merrick
Garland traveled to Ukraine this
week to discuss U.S. Efforts to
help prosecute Russian war
criminals.
Ukrainian authorities say they
are investigating more than
15,000 possible war crimes
committed since Russia invaded
in February.
The U.S. And European countries
are also supporting an
international criminal court
investigation.
Nick schifrin talks to the icc
prosecutor about the pursuit of
justice.
Nick: The horrors of a horrific
war.
More than 1000 Ukrainians in
bucha, bound and executed by
Russian soldiers, buried in a
mass grave.
A theater in mariupol, destroyed
by a direct Russian strike as
hundreds of women and children
hid inside.
Outside, their city obliterated,
many residents forcibly deported
into Russia.
Kyiv has already found a Russian
soldier guilty of killing a
Ukrainian citizen and sentenced
him to life.
But the Russian war crimes are
widespread, and include the
killing, torture, and rape of
civilians during armed conflict.
Those violations are set out in
the 1998 Rome statute that
created the international
criminal court.
>> The international criminal
court is troubling to the united
States.
Nick: In 2002, president George
W.
Bush withdrew U.S. Support.
But today the U.S. Is aiding icc
prosecutor Karim khan's
investigation in Ukraine, where
he's working with top prosecutor
iryna venidiktova.
I spoke to khan today from the
Hague.
When you opened your
investigation in Ukraine on
February 28, you said that there
was a reasonable basis to
believe alleged war crimes and
crimes against humanity have
been committed.
Today, almost four months later,
do you also believe the possible
genocide has been committed?
>> It's a great question, Nick,
but where are the early stages
of an investigation.
Analysts, investigators,
lawyers, forensic experts have
been, and are on the ground.
And we will in due course make
determinations, but we can't put
the cart before the horse.
Nick: Some of the atrocities
we've seen, including Russia
forcibly deporting Ukrainian
children, are specifically
written into the genocide
convention.
Russia trying to destroy entire
Ukrainian cities, even if it is
early in the investigation.
Do those kinds of acts become
the basis for a genocide
investigation?
>> We've seen and we're looking
into a number of allegations,
including the allegations
regarding the unlawful transfer
of civilians and children in
particular.
And they could give rise to
legal liability on a number of
grounds.
I'm not going to start
pontificating on what are
theoretical possibilities.
There is real suffering.
That's not theoretical.
There's real suffering in
Ukraine.
What we have to do is make sure
we put the law into action.
And the law has to have meaning
for those that are in shelters,
those that are feeling insecure,
those that have lost loved ones
or are today as we speak, are
facing bombardments or different
conduct that may constitute
international crimes.
And I think that's what we're
focusing on.
Nick: How difficult is it to
collect evidence when the crime
scene, as you've called it, is a
war zone?
>> It's not a walk in the park.
It's difficult because I've got
a duty of care to staff.
But it's not impossible.
We saw effective investigations
in the former yugoslavia.
I think we've seen time and time
again that there can be
accountability.
Nobody believed, Nick, that when
the guns were firing in the
Balkans, that Milosevic,
president Milosevic or karadzic
or mladic would ever be brought
to an international court.
Nobody thought at the height of
the genocide in Rwanda that
former prime minister Jean
kharbanda and others would be
brought to court.
Nick: Are you collecting
evidence that you believe could
lead to any kind of prosecution
of president Putin himself or
any senior Russian officials
around him?
>> All individuals have
responsibilities, from a foot
soldier to a general to a you
know, a civilian superior.
Everybody involved in conflict
that has engaged in hostilities
or has responsibilities to
prevent or punish, they can be
held accountable.
One of the legacies, Nick, from
nuremberg, was the principle
that there's no statute of
limitations for war crimes.
So I think we need to have the
perseverance, but also we need
to find new ways, innovative
ways to mobilize the law as soon
as possible.
Nick: There is no statute of
limitations, but there are of
course jurisdictional questions.
You won't prosecute any crime
that Ukraine's prosecutor
general is prosecuting.
You visited her multiple times.
You're working closely with her.
Have you and her made any kind
of decision yet about how to
divide some of the prosecutions
up?
>> Yes, we have had many
discussions.
I think Ukraine has a fantastic
prosecutor general in iryna
venidiktova, if the state is
willing and able, they have the
first right and indeed the first
responsibility to investigate
and prosecute crimes on their
territory.
Given the scale of criminality,
which is absolutely massive.
Whatever the level, we will move
forward and will have
discussions with our Ukrainian
counterparts and decide if there
is evidence, what is the best
forum?
Is the best forum the icc or is
it domestic courts?
For this nature, the reality,
everybody has to have a role.
Nick: Let's talk about some of
your coordination with the
United States and the Biden
administration.
Senior U.S. Officials tell me
that you have submitted requests
for intelligence.
U.S. Law prevents any
administration from funding the
icc, but it doesn't prevent the
U.S. From providing intelligence
or people to the icc.
In general, do you believe that
the Biden administration is
providing as much assistance to
you in this investigation as
U.S. Law allows?
>> We have had good
communications and good meetings
with the U.S. Administration and
in fact, bipartisan.
If we can work together, we can
get more justice than we have at
the moment.
Of course, I think there's
always areas for significant
improvement.
In an ideal world, I would make
many suggestions but it's not my
, prerogative.
There are conversations going
on, and I hope, of course, we
can build trust and we can get
evermore support from all state
parties, including the united
States.
Nick: Pursuing someone like
president Putin or other senior
Russian officials could be done
by another crime, the crime of
aggression.
The icc, of course, does not
have jurisdiction over the crime
of aggression.
But do you support Ukraine using
the crime of aggression, which
is in its legal code, or the
creation of some kind of
independent tribunal, to use the
crime of aggression against
senior Russian officials?
>> In terms of other entities,
other mechanisms, I think there
needs to be a dose of realism.
The icc has been here for 20
years.
It's been historically
under-resourced.
It has a clear jurisdiction and
there are some perhaps
unforeseen consequences or
difficulties by creating other
mechanisms.
I think we should focus on
mobilizing what is already here,
what already exists, but we can
become rather self-indulgent in
creating things that would like.
I'd rather focus on what we have
and put it into action
effectively.
Nick: Karim khan, the
international criminal court,
thank you very much.