[Music]
about to join me now is probably the
world's most famous intellectual
certainly the most famous intellectual
to come out of Canada in the last 20
years and he will be speaking with me
about the role of the University and
about his meteoric rise to intellectual
and media influence dr. Jordan Peterson
dr. Peterson I'm gonna start on on an
incidental thing at least an incidental
to me and has bothered me since you
became known as it is now to all the
world and that was in the very early
days of the controversy that came to you
when the University of Toronto sent you
some military letters that I thought
I've used this word before
insolent that I thought were against the
spirit of a university that they weren't
supporting you they were actually
threatening you
yes and that said to me that something
is beyond a particular controversy
something deeper is wrong here that
universities are this university is
upside down how did you reason that how
did they get there that they could be so
completely unaware of their own position
well I think a lot of it was was
confusion and and a lack of experience
with this sort of thing I mean the
University of Toronto is a peaceful
place and rather conservative University
all things considered the administration
wasn't prepared to handle a controversy
of the nature that swirled around me
they were used to making minor
administrative decisions and when they
were put on the spot and forced to
defend their fundamental presumptions
let's say it isn't clear that they were
ready and prepared to do so partly
because of lack of practice it isn't
necessarily the case that you climb the
administrative chain in the university
by engaging in continual philosophical
reappraisal of the fundamental
presuppositions of a university as an
institution you know it's a much more
honest rate of job and so I'm going to
say everything I can in favor of the
University of Toronto before I say
anything contrary you know I've found to
that when I've been put on the spot by
journalists and asked to defend let's
say customs that everyone has always
accepted like marriage yeah it's very
difficult to generate a defense for such
an institution off the top of your head
let's say because part of the whole
purpose of customs is that everyone
accepts you don't think reflux why they
are there they're there unstated
presuppositions and so when you're put
on the spot
you don't know what to do when I first
got the letter the first letter and I
know how HR departments work they send
you one letter of warning so that it's
documented and then they send you
another so that it's documented and then
they send you a third and if you haven't
ceased by then well then they go to the
next step which would be something to do
with whatever approximation
determination they might document you
yes yes and they're documenting all
their steps and I told the person who
delivered the letter to me who's a
person I actually got along with quite
well that it was full of errors and it
was poorly written and that they should
take it back and read it properly I did
oh yeah I followed and and no and
because if they're gonna do this they
better do it right or there was gonna be
yeah trouble and I didn't mean that I
was going to cause trouble necessarily
but that there was going to be trouble
but they didn't take it back so I read
it on YouTube so and and then I did the
same thing with the second letter and
then I met the Dean and after that and
you know we agreed we had a quite a
congenial discussion I would say and we
agreed to have a discussion at least a
debate yeah it never was a debate it was
I don't know what they call those now
they can't be debate
they were forums or something something
like yeah not a debate about free speech
on campus that was the three yeah I'm
sorry I saw that it's awful yeah it was
quite it was but they did do it which
which was something you know and I've
also heard that behind the scenes
because I have some friends who some
colleagues who have some access to
administrative decisions and they
believe that the University of Toronto
in the aftermath of all this has
actually reconfirmed its internal
commitment to free speech so and you
know I don't know how much of that is
true but I'm willing to give them a
certain amount of benefit of the doubt
but it's important to understand that
people can be caught unaware and the
other thing too is that they actually
did me a bit of a favor because one of
the things I claimed in the YouTube
video that I made was that what I was
doing by making the video was probably
illegal yes I remember and their lawyers
basically said that it was probably
illegal and so that also helped
establish my bonafide ease that say as a
reasonable interpreter of of the law and
so it wasn't all bad although it was
extraordinarily stressful yeah
demonstrations that followed how is it
that in a university which involves
things obviously it's the exercise of
thought the training in mind and
therefore the power of expression that
comes as a result of those two things
that to say things we under the banner
of Reason and an exercised mind that's
what it is
so how come how comes at that on certain
issues the transgender one as well
there's a whole list of the politically
correct ones that suddenly I don't need
as language being being bent it's being
turned upside down in some cases it's
been also neologisms are floating out
there every six seconds with new rules
on them a word you never heard yesterday
is somehow or other prejudice am you say
it today yes or even illegal to use very
much like the idea of dead naming well
the very one I was thinking that the
word didn't exist two days ago yeah and
now if you did name someone which which
is a word it doesn't exist you're in
violation of something over here
because when the heavily let go to
scraps that kept us either to something
like reason or when have we lost our
nerve that when people come to you and
they say to you things that you know not
from bias are nonsense that they can't
simply be dismissed as nonsense with no
peril whatsoever well you're all you're
assuming that we had nerve yeah I mean
sorry well I mean you know some people
have nerve but one of the things I've
learned over the last three years
because really this all started in
October of 2016 was that the percentage
of people who have nerve this is very
small and vanishingly small you know
I've met people Douglas Murray has nerve
yeah that's for sure Roger Scruton Asner
yes he has Lindsay Sheppard has nerve
yes yes there's a handful of people that
I've met who you you can't move you know
you're one of them I would say try well
succeed I would say and I've met a
number of journalists who've you know
I've had my fair share of conflict with
journalists that's for sure I would say
talking to journalists is the most
stressful thing I've done
apart from talks at university campuses
sure that's just a sidetrack that
because it's a very good issue
journalism I've been playing at it from
the margins for a long what journalism
is very much corrupted it is not the
media in the middle it is in many cases
wittingly or unwittingly partisan it is
part of the game that it says it's
covering journalist this is one of the
failing institutions in society much of
universities yeah well you know there's
there's technological reasons for that
you know the journalists journalism as
such is under unbelievable pressure from
the new technologies YouTube podcasts in
particular which of course have also
vastly expanded what constitutes
journalism and so journalists are
running scared it's very difficult for
them to to find paying jobs it's their
staffs are shrinking the newspapers are
in trouble television stations are
vanishing and so there's an increasing
spiration i would say as well as
decreasing professionalism among those
who still practice and so some of its
the personal failings of the ideologue
who happen to be occupying the positions
that ideologue occupy but some of it's a
consequence of these transformations in
communication technology that are so
vast that they're actually inconceivable
and I think YouTube both YouTube and
podcasts are are great examples of that
podcasts even more than YouTube because
YouTube serves billions of people which
is one walloping Network yeah but
podcasts are maybe 10 times as popular
so it and that's all underground is
interesting yeah they don't attract as
much attention you know or as much
controversy maybe because they're more
siloed in some sense but the journalists
are fighting a losing game and and I
think as you fight a losing game I've
seen this happen with corporations you
lose your best people first and then the
death spiral begins and and I think
we're seeing exactly that and then
that's exaggerated by this proclivity to
polarization that also might be part and
parcel of the technological changes you
know okay let me sweep back to that our
nerve I know because I follow you how
deep your respect and attention to
Alexander Solzhenitsyn is if he's if you
have a hero obviously he is it now in
the Soviet Union if so social it's
ignites a small note or something he
gets tossed off into a pool like for
nine years or more if a man looks the
wrong way in China he can be some damn
camp and in Korea we won't even go into
it in those countries if you want to say
something even if it's not fairly
innocuous you really have to have
courage
Solzhenitsyn should be called Stalin he
had the steel over here when okay we
have a trans activist group that's and
yeah listen anything and you almost
almost innately know that this is absurd
and you say well I don't think I'm gonna
say that's absurd what are we afraid of
we fight fight wars and say
we gave all our soldiers that's that we
would preserve democracy and freedom of
speech there is no there is no loss if
you decide to challenge in terms of any
contrast with the totalitarian systems
where if you said something you really
did pay a price yeah worst thing you do
over here lose a job well you can be
hauled in front of quasi-judicial I know
the tribunes as well and I mean they're
certainly willing to do that I think the
Human Rights Tribunal should in my
opinion they should be obliterated
they're a travesty they they're they're
yes we're setting up these quasi
judicial inquisitions in all sorts of
it's an ideologically constituted
because I read the biographies of some
of the people who are appointed to them
yeah
and no one can be a judge in their own
cause and in this context it's the cause
people judging the causes yeah precisely
but I I look what's happening in British
Columbia with this case is it what's the
Jessica or Jonathan I prefer Jonathan I
think yeah with Jonathan I think he will
haul us in front of it we will row
together good be too much to bear but no
he's got 16 people a good portion of
them are immigrant women yeah he is
insisting that they wax his penis and
testicles he's got here on the first
it's a bit of a blurry and he's got 16
of them under charge and I asked a
question if 16 people are of this mind
and one person is of this yeah who is
that which is the more likely to be off
yeah well it seems it seems irrelevant
and I mean it's a consequence you know
one of the things I pointed out with
Bill c16 was that it contained multiple
internal contradictions especially in
the background policies which I had read
in quite a bit of detail they were
formulated in Ontario although the
federal government removed the link on
their website to those policies after I
pointed out the fact that that link
existed which I thought was unbelievably
underhanded and still believed so but
Carl Jung once said that internal
contradictions are played out in the
world as fate you know is that the thing
about propositions if they're accurate
is that they represent real states of
being in the world and if you entered
a set of propositions that are
internally contradictory then you're
going to run yourself into all sorts of
sharp objects and and and and and dead
ends and that's exactly what's happening
and it every time and I this
really for three years every time you
think that there's no possible way that
this could get more absurd then one more
example comes up where it's more absurd
and I would say the situation in BC is
precisely that I mean one of the women
that he's persecuting because I think he
and this terrible bureaucracy is
persecuting was a immigrant woman I
believe she was Muslim who had a on
aesthetics business in her own homeland
basement as a consequence of the
negative publicity or the publicity and
the pressure she shut down her business
god only knows what that means for her
family and well and for her and you were
asking about courage earlier you know
one of the things that I have watched
quite frequently is the way that people
respond to being mobbed on Twitter yeah
you know now I've almost stopped looking
at Twitter it's been about three months
that I've taken a Twitter hiatus let's
say I still post hey I don't even have
my password anymore I send what I want
opposed to a third party and they post
it because it keeps me out of an
antiseptic distance that's right exactly
and that's exactly the right way of
thinking about it you know people
civilize people and I mean that in yeah
in civilized socialized people cannot
tolerate being mobbed because known
again because then there's a reason for
that you see you you said with regards
to the British Columbia Human Rights
Tribunal you know through 16 people on
one side and one on the other you might
be thinking that the sixteen people are
right more or less right right but then
you think think of the situation where
you've said something on Twitter and you
know 6,000 people have mob you publicly
I mean your first response if your your
first response is going to be to examine
your own conscience and see how you
transgressed it's not really much
psychologically I mean it's lesser I
suppose but it's not that much different
than waking up one morning and coming to
your door and finding a mob of your
neighbors angrily and update it on your
lawn you know it's a terrible shock for
people and it really hurts them you know
they're often there often by all
accounts you know damaged for lengthy
periods of time by this and and their
first their first impulse is to
apologize which is which is truly the
wrong thing is do is stand well the
right thing to do is to is to is to
understand that if you haven't done
anything wrong you you don't apologize
no that's a very difficult very
difficult and then to wait because if
you wait two weeks people won't come to
your defense
they're what it takes the people who
will come to your defense two weeks to
get their act together where it takes
the activists who are unbelievably
organized 15 seconds to mob you well
there's two points to draw out of there
first of all because you have now been
almost fire-hosed into the world of
celebrity multi media and vast attention
I've dabbled in a lesser zone for a long
while so you adjust to the kind of swirl
okay but what I've never forgotten and
I'm serious is that people who are not
in it at all my father or mechanic down
the road or the doctor over here doesn't
that pre-class if you haven't had media
and if you haven't adjusted to it and
suddenly your name and just I'm just
backing up your point your name suddenly
becomes the center of some great Twitter
snowstorm in pejorative terms and people
are speaking of you and with the most
vulgar responses it is a terror it isn't
to me I just miss it but people who have
not experienced it it is really really
really something but it's an unbearable
pain yes and they bring it down with
Club force and the great great
megaphones of national networks in the
states etc you can expunge a person's
personality with this kind of brutality
yes well then it's permanent right
because
the record never disappears and I wanted
to put a personal question to you now
when you because I know you had been on
YouTube you thought you knew the media
and that sense but you weren't a media
person in your baptism harsh as it was
how hard was it in the first couple of
weeks for you to find balance and scale
you may be a clinical psychologist and
you are obviously majority oh I don't
think I've ever found balancing and
scale join my club I knew I mean in the
Indies that great throbbing moment when
all this stuff came in and he hates this
one and your name is flashed all over
the world that was the first real
magnitude of media attack on yeah so
even for you how was how was that period
well it was dreadful I mean especially
the first couple of months because well
because the attention was well it has
been since then but the attention was
unbelievably intense I mean I had there
were days upon days where there were
reporters lined up coming into the house
one after the other
and that's that really hasn't stopped I
mean it stopped let's say in the last
two months since since the end of March
however long ago that it's because I've
shot myself off because of my I have
some family health trouble that's very
serious but I don't think I've ever
adjust to it mm-hmm
what's made it bearable I would say and
some of its being very good I mean it's
taken my life which was fairly broad
yeah a fairly broad range of experiences
partly because I'm a clinical
psychologist and you know it's taken it
from good and bad to great and yeah
unbearable and I yo-yo between those
states what's helped is well the first
thing is is that you know I determined
right from the beginning that I was
going to say
carefully what I believe to be true
because there wasn't a safer route than
that it's interesting you know that that
in the final analysis it wasn't certain
that anything would protect me better
than by willing to write well whether
that would work or not was debatable but
there wasn't a better option yeah I can
understand that and I believe that you
know I still believe that and I think
the success of what I've done is an
indication of that the success of my
book say which is also absolutely
overwhelming I mean it's it's impossible
to yeah actually I'm kind of old you
know I'm just about 60 and then you have
your white tenure may look there's all
of those things bad man yeah well the
old part I think has to do with yeah
well but you know it's it's fulfilled
and the lectures and the podcasts as
well and the YouTube videos they've
fulfilled a need which also is something
that's very difficult for me to to
reconcile myself to you know I mean
every time I walk down the street
someone stops me someone stopped me on
the way here you know and as opposed to
my treatment at the hand of a minority
of journalists which has been atrocious
support occasion and and academics as
well the treatment I received from
people in public is so positive that
it's almost unbearable let me tell you a
personal anecdote that relates to you I
don't mix my own stuff with family
members but my sister is a non-political
kind of person and as I say I don't mix
those things she called me she's out of
this world altogether she called me I
don't know a year ago you have you seen
her Jordan dr. Jordan pigeon do you know
what doctor lovely stuff and she is
following the videos the biblical
lectures you know she's a smart nice
woman and then that was one thing that
was unsolicited she's not in the world
of publicity she'll follow fads but
somehow your name got in there and she's
watching these with great attention
great enjoyment actually but the better
one won't be
particular friend of mine from home
never finish school
he's about 55 56 so we're not into the
team cohort yeah and he calls me of it I
don't think he's read a book in six
years and he says I've been watching
this Peterson fellow and you know I
can't reproduce what he was saying is
just that he found such comfort yeah and
he thought he found such support and my
thought when I was hearing this it was
some way to relate to you in all the the
ping pong back and forth that you're
going yeah these voices are saying
something you're doing something really
fine for people that I could never
project would be receiving the message
it's
it's very this is also something that's
been very difficult to both understand
and I would say in a strange way to
tolerate because I become opened up to
the trouble that people have in a way
that far exceeds even what I experienced
as a clinical psychologist yeah you know
last year my wife and I went to 160
cities
yeah it was well we figured we better
make oh me well the Sun shines so you're
stronger mentally you know be well you
get caught up and you get caught up in
the wave of events self supplies well
and it was it was it was exciting and
worthwhile and the demand was there you
know and yes I enjoy lecturing and I
used the opportunity I delivered a
different lecture every night and I used
the opportunity to think you know and
and to communicate which of course is
what and in a psychologically in a
manner that I believe to be
psychologically helpful but it was also
I think and I don't know exactly what
the cumulative effect has been lured me
um but I had no idea the degree to which
so we're dying for a word in Kerrville
many people want that's what my friend
was about
I'm speaking back to you now on the same
thing I know what he was saying he had
felt no soft brain for a long long time
yeah and he was in this camp of the
truly neglected yeah yeah uneducated and
not particularly sophisticated he's got
a low-paying job about you yeah and
then someone is out there of stature and
credibility and this guy who would never
be in your circle never yeah you send an
echo ping to him and he was calling me
to say my god this is so allow yourself
to feel good yeah well I did the thing
is the funny thing is is that it doesn't
feel it doesn't feel good
um you know and that might be a
reflection of my general state of mind
which is very unsettled at the moment
for the reasons that I told you and well
because of all of everything that's
happened over the last few years but to
get a taste of the depth of despair that
that can be ameliorated with with not
much more than you know some some words
of encouragement some some statement
that you know you as a human being
aren't intrinsically worthless worthless
and that you have a spirit worth
preserving and the things that you do in
your life that you do correctly are
important it's like people are literally
dying lark of that I mean that I mean
that not only honestly I I don't know
how many people have told me and these
are very hard things to hear it's been
hundreds of people because I meet people
after each of my lectures you know
who've told me that yep they are still
alive because they watch my lectures or
because they read my book or and then
they usually have a good story to tell
you know about what sort of hell they
happen to be in six months earlier and
what they did to pull themselves out and
how that's brought their family back
together or help them advance in their
career or got them out of bed or stop
them from using heroin or being
alcoholic under something
yeah well and you know all of that is
I'm is it something that you at some
point and at least to shield against no
no no no well I may be I can put it in
another way I meant to ask this a little
early but you're already telling me when
you when this began once it when you
began this when this began this is this
is a experience and you set out to the
world you started yeah you had maps of
meaning I also know without knowing you
that you had spent some considerable
time doing actual thinking which is
something people don't do very much
successively you thought and you thought
things through in a way that this these
generations have almost abandoned but so
you were prepared in that sense and you
went out and there were certain things
you saw wrong or discordant either in
the Universities or in the general
system and you said I'd like to spread
some reason there I'd like to talk also
about reality and life now when that
began I I would think you everything was
fairly fairly sufficient what did you
learn and how did I'll call it a mission
if I may how did the mission change over
time when you came in contact with the
audience that you're now describing and
what is it that you have learned you'll
have a lot of thought beforehand you
know what you're at but when you go out
and encounter all of these and all of
these individuals what new came to you
well I would say it is obvious to me
that the mission itself changed
I think it's an extension of what I've
been doing for since 1985 and maybe even
before that it's just that the scale
continued to grow I mean even with my
YouTube channel where I put my lectures
in rather primitive technological form
because I was just using an iPad and you
know lapel mic yeah I had a million
views by April 2016 and you know that
really made me think because I worked
with TV oh of course and my lectures
were popular with
big ideas which showcased a number of
public intellectuals yeah I think I had
five lectures in the top 20 or something
like that so I knew that there was and I
was getting a certain amount of
recognition in public for that not a lot
you know enough and then from a very
wide variety of people you know which
was quite quite interesting when I hit
the million mark on YouTube I really
thought about that because I thought
well I don't know what to do with that
figure I don't know how to conceptualize
it in context because a million there's
a lot of people it's you know 20
football stadiums full of people it's
it's it's a vest it's a it's an
overwhelmingly best-selling book it's
yeah it's it's far more people than
you'd teach in your life and I thought
well what and it wasn't cute cat videos
you know and this is this was back when
YouTube was still a developing course
let's say that's right and something to
be sort of ignored in some sense because
of its humble beginnings it was a very
secondary place yes it was a very
secondary place although that was
starting to change I thought what the
hell is this YouTube what are we doing
here and then it struck me that well
this was a Gutenberg Revolution that we
were experiencing that the spoken word
was now as permanent and as immediate
more immediate than the printed word and
just as permanent and with a much larger
audience because more people as far as I
can tell can listen then can read and
even with my book a tremendous
percentage of my books have been sold in
audio form so so I really started to
think about YouTube at that point and I
suppose that was one of the things that
drove me in my foolish curiosity to make
those political videos that I made in
October which was the first time I'd
ever tried something like that and now
it was in some sense I wouldn't call it
a whim but you know I woke up at 3 in
the morning because I was so irritated
about this bill and it's it's it's it's
it's attempt to force a certain type of
length usage tonight I could see what
was behind that quite clearly I thought
well you know this really is annoying me
to death and often what I would do when
something was annoying me the death was
get up and write but
I thought well I'll make a YouTube video
and see what happens it's like well I
certainly saw yeah you did yeah yeah no
kidding well the thing is you know you
you've got you've got a hold of
something let's say it's YouTube and you
think you know what it is and you know
you don't you don't have any idea what
it is
and neither does anyone else and and
that's certainly still the case we have
no idea what these multiple technologies
are doing to us but I can tell you that
YouTube is an overwhelming force and
it's becoming more and more powerful day
by day I've especially seen that in
countries Slovenia was a good example
where no one really trusts the
mainstream press all the young people do
and not so young either pretty much
everybody under 35 I would say all they
watch is YouTube and and that's the case
all over the world and so it's I think
on my youtube channel my videos have
been watched 110 million times probably
like because people keep cutting them up
and distribute yeah which is something
else that can be done on YouTube right
you can have a dialogue right yeah yeah
edit and make their own commentaries and
the total for that would be at least 500
million yeah that's for sure
if you're a god it's it's a new it's a
new conversation it's a new idea of
conversation you know that it's the word
for it yeah well it is certainly it
certainly has that conversational aspect
that television lacks it's very comical
to watch a an organization like CBC try
to adapt itself to YouTube because
they'll put on a ten minute clip yeah
they break all the rules they put two
30-second commercials in front of it
which you can't skip so no longer watch
it no one will watch it no what do you
do with YouTube as you put on this
10-second commercial and you let people
skip it after five seconds that's the
rule they break that rule then they
don't allow comments and so they'll put
up a per something you might want to
watch you know for ten minutes and
they'll get like you know 20,000 30,000
views because they don't take the con
tensions of the know of that they don't
take it seriously
you should take YouTube seriously when
they also they also have no intuition
for these particular forms and they're
also that this is a circle back to even
to the beginning they're wrapped up in
certain ideas about things and they're
wrapped up in a certain orientation
towards change and politics that there's
only a certain certain certain quarters
that they will walk down yeah and there
are other quarters which are forbidden
to Lourdes or it is heresy to even admit
that they exist yes in populations you
won't deign to address so one of the
things that's interesting about the
YouTube stars you know like Rogan and
say Dave Rubin is that they don't think
their audience is stupid that's a good
beginning it is it's a really good my
lectures is well you talked about the
gentleman who sent you the email 55 it
wasn't well educated a tremendous number
of the people who are coming to my
lectures are people in that camp they're
working class yes often men but not
always women as well but more men and
their long-haul truckers or construction
workers and they're listening to three
hour lectures and complex that's the
point and it's because they're not
stupid they're interested in the world
it also defines a great axiom if you
were in the television world private or
public for 30 years the idea if you had
an interview I did provincial show for
years and years if you had an interview
you may make it four minutes we're gonna
go they're gonna watch you for five
minutes right if you had a commentary
can you make it 60 seconds yeah the idea
that people had an attention span that
we had four minutes never entered into
the world of people in the studio and
you and you put stuff on that has no
glitz it is profound it can be complex
and it goes on for 60 70 80 minutes and
everyone is happy yeah I mean it's all
upside they've been operating under
wrong assumptions for three decades yeah
well in Romans
Brogan's interviews are three hours long
yeah you know when people watch the
whole thing or listen to the whole thing
let's go back to another area where you
really have been on the mark I'm saying
that personally and I think you're
absolutely correct
and this is not significant see the some
of the stuff that goes on in the
university some of the if I read the
course syllabus if I read some of these
real peer reviews some of the subjects
in there are beneath tripe well that's
that's why they've flourished I'm
serious I thought about this a lot it's
like what the hell happened and here's
what happened is that you know the
scientific types and the serious
scholars they're they're a specific sort
of person they're rather obsessed the
good ones yeah the good the great ones
are completely obsessed yes and partly
mad you know well and then well maybe
you need the bit of that I'd be
completely obsessed I think you're and
you know a minority of scientists
produce the majority of a literature and
it's the same social sciences and so
those are people who are working 70 or
80 hours a week all they do is work and
what they work on is their thing and
they need to do that because well
they're on the cutting edge and they
want to stay there and they have their
ambitions for some of some of sometimes
its political ambitions but their stuff
never lasts but the good scholars or
some of them are great they discover
amazing things I mean I've encountered
amazing psychological research you know
that's just especially in the
physiological or the physiological end
of things and in the general literature
that's just absolutely brilliant beyond
belief and even to the voyage of
discovery is a tremendous ecstasy in
itself yes well and it's a minority
taste in some fortunately and then
there's the pseudo disciplines which
have multiplied since the 1960s and no
one who was serious paid any attention
to them see that's what happened is that
the serious people were busy doing
they're serious things and there was all
this stuff yeah
political activism politics yeah gender
stuff that's right that's right didn't
they in the what did they call the
grievant Studies departments you know
and everybody just sort of assumed that
they were noisy but harmless
but they were not harmless because
they're extraordinary well or
I stand the the balance tipped no it
almost tipped in the 90s because there
was a big go big rising of political
correctness around then the American
economy moved like mad and that kind of
I think that just kind of took the steam
out of the out of the what would you
call it out of the objections yeah but
something happened four years ago
something like that five years ago where
the scales tipped and I think it was a
fair part of this I'm like I really like
your opinion is the growth of this it's
it's an awful philosophy the idea of
identity politics which carries two
great axioms that I can only communicate
with you if you aren't the same tribe as
I am and you're teaching me in
particular I can't be taught by you if
you're not my drive but education is
actually to receive it from everybody
else and take you out of yourself and
the second thing is the subdivisions of
identity politics that ridiculous story
odeon be seized on that identity
politics yeah gender politics that's
roared out into society damn half the
people who have two dinner tables of
North America are afraid to bring these
subjects up you're probably more than
half and we're being ruled by them yeah
well it doesn't take much it doesn't
take a very large determined minority to
shut down a large and silent majority
that's unfortunately the rule and the
identity politics issue it's a reversion
to tribalism and you know and so it's
the miracle actually the surprise isn't
actually that it's back the surprises
that it ever went away
and and we took the fact that it went
away for granted and and and we forgot
the reasons that it went away we forgot
the axioms right we started to lose
faith in them let's say and well that's
partly what I've been trying to fight
against and to write about why those
rules were why those rules were
necessary and and and what they meant is
it is part of your project you know the
various words I'm using here as part of
your project a condom restoration or a
reminder that certain certain markers
are fundamental
cannot be moved well that is that isn't
the project I mean when I wrote my first
book yeah took me about 15 years to
write and I spent really I spent all my
time except when I was writing
scientific papers and when I was
socializing which I did a fair bit of
thinking about that book I mean it was
really obsessive thinking chronic from
the time I woke up till the time I went
to bed unless I was engaged in some
other activity that would shut down my
mind I was trying to understand whether
there were was what a foundation of
stone underneath the presumptions of
Western civilization or it was really a
postmodern book maps of meaning which I
didn't understand because at the time
being unfamiliar with that lexicon let's
say there was the terrible cold war
raging and you know it wasn't obvious
that it wasn't merely a matter of
opinion you know you could make that
case is that well here's your set of
Marxist presuppositions many of which
sounded incredibly attractive and which
still do to some you know from each
according to his ability to each
according to his need I mean no one
likes to see people with needs
unfulfilled the problem is that needs
multiplied without end and ability is
limited but you know you you have to
start thinking about the world in a
harsh and sophisticated way to to to to
notice that flaw I I wanted to analyze
that system and the Nazi system to a
lesser degree but but also that and the
Western system to see if there was
something at the bottom that was rock
like that wasn't merely arbitrary and I
believe that what I discovered let's say
or thought through was that we got some
things in the West fundamentally correct
and and they're they're correct for
biological reasons which is very
important because we'd be alone around
very long time yeah biological reasons
are very fundamental but also that that
biology reflects some underlying
metaphysics as well that we don't
understand because we don't understand
anything about the fundamental nature of
the world it'll beyond as a why yes the
whys and the wherefores for that matter
the purpose all of that
the fact that people have religious
experiences and and that they're they're
easily duplicate bull and and that they
seem to be consistent across societies
at least to some degree and and what I
decided then kiss me because I was
trying to understand why the world had
divided itself up into armed camps that
were hell-bent on mutual destruction
right mutual assured destruction right
the terrible acronym had which was you
know an insane satanic joke and what why
it was so important for us to defend our
tribal positions in that manner and what
if anything could be done about it like
it here's here's the solution we have
this terrible tribal warfare its
characteristic of our species and and
its accelerated to a degree that's not
sustainable what do we do about it and
the answer that came to me as a
consequence of what I studied was that
we try to make ourselves better people
it's it's a the solution to tribalism is
the elevation of the individual West got
that right the individual is yes that
begins the entire reaction yes that's
why the identity politics makes the
individual a simple avatar of the
collective right and everything that
attaches to him is is always extrinsic
and not essential yes and you strip
personality and we're adding up groups
and trying to administer justice via our
collective yeah it's it same why do we
never it's terrible it's it's so
dangerous and why I heard you on this
why do we seek to perpetrate some sort
of justice over two generations it was
one of the worst things in in all of
history that you would make this honor
to daughter and carry the sin that
they're after parents yeah and now it's
you're seeing it in reparations again
yeah yeah all the ideas that we thought
had been completely wiped out leader
enlightenment or just simple logic
itself they're back yeah why are we so
easily yielding to this I mean the the
patterns of correctness in the language
of people kind and things of that order
it's an absurdity well I think some of
it is
the desire to escape from individual
responsibilities know if you can
dissolve yourself in the collective and
and then then the impetus isn't on you
to act as forthrightness as would
otherwise speed necessarily the case so
there's that and then there's the the
the undeniable attraction of having
someone to blame for the miseries of
your existence which which are likely
manifold it's also the comfort of saying
I can start a small war with one driving
another and we can we can play games
with each of these blocks won't be a
society won't be a country but if you
dissolve the collective politics I mean
the real politics into sub the
subcategories of gender sex ethnic
religion and each of these is now
claiming a rate only as a collective
everything else falls apart you know you
know your Yeats yeah and you don't need
to vote it yeah but again back to the
universities if there's one place that
can reset balances it starts with mine
it starts with the younger mind that
when we met with a more mature mind and
taught the ways of the mind out of mine
works what we should read how you form
judgments how you put contrasts over
great lengths of time not today in
tomorrow five hundred years ago if you
train the minds and there is a balance
and there's an opportunity to see the
world as it really is you have to
believe in the mind in order to do
exactly what we were discussing is that
you know one of the things I've pointed
out to my audiences is that there isn't
a debate about who should speak on
campuses there's a debate about whether
free speech exists that's a whole
different debate I know
people don't understand the difference
in the severity of those two debates
like if I don't want you to talk I still
might believe that people can talk yes
you can exchange opinions and bacon
changes other's minds and even if
they're different the argument that's
being put forward on the campuses to
stop people from speaking is that there
is no such thing as free speech all
there is is the exchange of I of the
ideas of avatars who are possessed by
their group exactly and the logical
that is to refuse to let them to speak
speak because why should you allow the
group that you're in direct competition
sadly to to have its voice and so it's
it's the the collectivists the identity
politics types it's that it's the very
idea of individuality that they're
opposed to that that they've dispensed
with and and that goes back to their you
know to the French terrible the terrible
the despicable French intellectuals who
in my opinion we're responsible for
leading this revolution and it got
picked up as always the the most
obnoxious and you society is useless in
the sense of their of their intrinsic
logic find the easiest walk around the
campus this is the most trendy
institution in the world
yeah well and it came through that it
came through well it came through the
Yale in English department yes yeah yeah
that's where that's where the French
continental ideas made their entrance
into North America you know you know all
your travels the speeches I know much of
it gets small Pete into the policy
because politics because that's the
world were in do you get much chance
because obviously no gataki were around
they wouldn't last do you get much
chance to expand on the beauties of the
culture I'm doing and poetry and music
and things of this nature the other side
of the academic the things that
sometimes they sing to the humans I do I
do I mean that's one of the reasons that
that I was so motivated to continue the
lectures because we actually put
together a sequence of Tours what we
didn't plan 160 cities in one go I mean
it sort of unfolded Donahue and Bono
left yeah yeah well it unfolded across
time you know because they were so
popular yeah and the popularity didn't
seem to be waning and but it was an
opportunity to put forward the case for
all the wonderful things that we've done
I mean and to express gratitude and
amazement at the fact that you know our
the fact that our city this city Toronto
the city works is for me it's an and I
think this is partly because I've been
sensitized so much to to the catastrophe
of existence sort of the collective and
the personal senses that when I go
outside and everything works and there's
all these people of different colors and
creeds and religions walking down the
street and it's all peaceful when the
lights go on regularly and the power is
always working and everything
technological is a hundred percent
reliable and there's no riots in the
street and the probability that you're
going to meet with an untimely and
painful death at the hands of someone
else is almost nil and that we live for
such a long time all of this to me is a
complete it's a complete miracle it
truly is and I remind people of the
unlikelihood of that constantly in the
lectures and ask them to be grateful for
the fact that maybe you think you look a
hundred years ago 1990 in 1919 you just
think of what you would have been
through in the last six years right the
Russian Revolution the First World War
the Spanish Influenza just absolute
bloody hellish catastrophe one after the
other conception and that season was
brewing then - right right right right
right the seeds that next they're after
free were already at work they were and
and also of course the same thing with
the Russian Revolution which was bloody
enough to begin with but which certainly
accelerated and its brutality as it
expanded and you know we don't have any
of that at the moment it's actually the
world is more peaceful than it's ever
been there's no wars in the Western
Hemisphere that's the first time since
the coming of Columbus that the entire
Western Hemisphere is free of of the
conflicts I see frequently on your
various sites that you do list up and
that's that's another great counter the
the environmental crowd and I don't take
them as being pure either some of them
are obviously most of them are not there
they're always having a spectacular at
the high table the catastrophe the world
is ending the more this is worse would
ever be we're destroying the planet
you point out very frequently that
certain of the technology is certain of
the advances of the civilization that
lifted people out of poverty they put
them into new situations they we have
relieved more suffering in some cases
not maybe not more than we have caused
but it's a different century we should
be grateful for things
gratitude is in short supply yes it's in
it's it's it's completely absent among
the collectivist
there's no gratitude at all and that's a
and it's so interesting it's so
interesting to me to see that because
let's say the professors who lead those
movements they are the most protected
people who've ever lived there it's like
it's like they're standing on a hill and
around them as a wall and it's four feet
away and around them that wall is
another wall that's four feet away in
another wall in another wall there's
just sequential walls and that this edge
of the sequential walls is a huge army
and its power yeah yeah and and all of
that protects them absolutely absolutely
and they say everything is corrupt and
there's just no sense whatsoever and
that's that's that's appalling to me
because it's so unlikely to occupy a
position like that and and the proper
response
although criticism is necessary
obviously criticism means well this is
wrong and this is how we could fix it it
doesn't mean tear everything down leaves
them with nothing and that's certainly
that certainly happens to people in
universities now they they come in
barely formed
yeah and they leave illa form they yeah
they leave they leave in tatters you
know and that's that's and it's also
children to go back to where you may
refer to what I've referred to it there
are so many people outside of the higher
structures of society that no one's
talking to that's where mr. Trump comes
in yeah and more power to them for that
matter he is talking enlisting I know
that's another absolute heresy he's not
the cause of these things
he's the result of failures of order and
more sophisticated people well I think I
have a friend he's working very closely
with the Democratic Party in the United
States and and has been quite effective
at doing so and trying to move the party
closer to the middle and away from the
radicals and we discussed this a lot
because you know I think one of the
reasons that the people who hate the
Democrats in the United States truly
hate
right there's just vitriol here is
because they've proved themselves
incapable of generating a candidate who
can actually take on Trump yeah and I
think there's a disappointment even
among the enemies of the Democrats
that's so profound there that it
generates precisely that's material it's
like the man is is is characterized by
manifold flaws and I'm not saying this
in a partisan way no no except and the
fact that the system works so poorly
that a credible centrist candidate can't
be found to to offer himself at least as
a viable alternative I mean my poor
friend who I said has been following
this and it's being deeply involved in
the debates he's just he's just tearing
out his hair and watching degenerate
when they should well exactly it's so
sad you got yeah you have you haven't a
new-age spiritualist who's gonna be
President of the United States and you
have them dissolving the idea of
nationhood we will abandon borders I
mean it anyway it is such a waiting but
the people didn't the street the guy who
called me about you that's a class and
it's a vast class yes and it's it is
that's the great fifty percent yeah that
has been walked over and is turmoil and
all of the identity politics on all
those things that get traffic and
commerce in conversation in the media
these are irrelevant to them yeah apart
from being insulting yes and after a
while the social pressure will is it and
this game that's going on over here
will have to close or something breaks
yes yes well I guess in Trump was an
attempt to break into Brexton was
another attack that's right in brexit
wasn't an Australian good illustrate I
let you go with one more question only
after all of that you have done and all
the energy obviously that it required to
do it and have you come at this point to
something fresh in your understanding
about what counts and what does not
count how one conducts themselves about
the universe as something new occurred
to you or is it a refinement of what you
went in with I think the fundamental
thing that I've learned is that you can
speak in
in the deepest terms imaginable if
you're careful to an extraordinarily
wide range of people and that that and
that that's desperately needed and that
hopefully it's salutary
it looks like it's salutary and and so
that's hopeful you know the the the
counterpoint to the stress of over the
last three years has been the my
observation of the positive consequences
of having these sorts of deep as deep as
I can make them anyways philosophical
discussions and to watch thousands of
people participate as if it's important
you know when I talk to Sam Harris in
Dublin about the relationship between
facts and values and religion and
science which you know is about as
academic a topic as you could hope for
we had 10,000 people come to the resort
it's it's it's so that's the university
may not be functioning where it supposed
to be functioning but that doesn't mean
that it's not functioning you know it's
out there thought we'll find this place
well that's that's that's what it looks
like to me and so that's been
unbelievably positive although very
demanding yeah it's it's well and I mean
in these interviews more frequently I
tended to get emotional and the reason
for that is the health problems that are
plaguing my family at least in part this
understand so that makes me more much
more fragile than I should otherwise be
just decide despite my exhortation to
people to know they're there cause my my
friend oh I'm a cross for you the beer
listen I thank you greatly and for your
courtesy because you obviously didn't
have to do this and I really do admire
what you're doing and I will say on
behalf of the people who will never meet
you you were a very fine person thank
you thank you very much for the support
that you've shown me over the last few
years so it was much appreciated I would
do it 20 times well I appreciate that
very much
it was a pleasure to meet you sir
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