When people talk about things that have happened
decades ago, I often hear people say:
"But that was a different time and it was
"a different culture."
Do you think that was true?
Is that how it was perceived?
I think that there was much less challenging of it.
The men just behaved like that and they always will
and there's nothing much you can do about it.
I don't think women thought it was acceptable.
I think men thought they were absolutely
and totally entitled.
I think nowadays they may be a bit more cautious.
From your experience and the way you've seen things go,
where do you think the change needs to come from?
The change really needs to come in the workplace.
Where it's really serious, where it really matters
is where women are vulnerable
because their whole career depends
on the person who's harassing them.
That's where it's really toxic
and much more, probably, in the less glamorous,
less visible. I think what you don't see
in the invisible world of unglamorous work,
I suspect is far worse.
Also, I think there is confusion between the workplace
and life outside.
And I'm not sure that you'll agree with me about this
but I think a world in which Spearmint Rhino is fine
and all the lads from the office go out together
on a night out and then they're supposed to go
back into the office and regard the women in the office
as some utterly different species ...
It's about the whole attitude to women, whoever they are –
whether they're pole dancers or prostitutes or whoever –
I think it's all on one continuum.
See, I don't worry so much about the strip clubs
and prostitution. I like to bring it back to personal liberty.
I think a lot of people I know would say, you know:
"We're open-minded, we're happy for everybody
"to do what they want but I want to have control
"over myself and what I do and I don't speak
"for everything else that happens in society."
The conversation needs to remain
around power dynamics.
If you're open to exploitation because people know
that you're going to put up with things
because you need to get paid that week,
have a job, you know, sort your rent out,
those are the issues which we could
potentially try and fix.
You're absolutely right because people have
hit back on this. You know, you read the articles
in the Mail and the Sun, saying:
"Oh! This is a lot of snowflakes whinging"
because they completely blur the line as if
women complaining about some man who
hasn't had any power over them putting a hand on them
or putting a hand on their knee
and you think: "Well, you know, big deal."
It's only a big deal if she's not in a position to say "bugger off"
because she's on a short term contract,
because she's relying on this person for a promotion,
because if she does he'll put the word around
in the workplace that she's trouble.
You're right, we really need to focus
on what matters most and that is about power
and in most workplaces, the people in positions
of power are predominantly men.
I have to say though, some of my best allies are men
and they are really amazing and they've made
everything much easier for the women around them.
And I do feel like I want to just point that out.
Absolutely, there are feminist men
and there are many more decent men than there used to be.
In your generation, loads more
and that's a very good thing.
Also though, call out the women traitors.
I mean the Sarah Vines, the Allison Pearsons,
the Julia Hartley-Brewers, the Anne Robinsons.
They do unbelievable damage because, after all,
you know, 85% of the press is rightwing
and delights in women like that, who say:
"Oh, these women are just snowflakes.
"Why can't take it?" and all that.
I mean, they are the real enemy.
A lot of people I know who are in creative industries
or they're very, very ambitious,
they're finding themselves in situations where
the ambition to do a job is meaning that they're
having to let things which make them uncomfortable slide.
This idea that people are snowflakes
and they get really sensitive about things,
I think is really unfair because most of the time,
most of the people I know are just getting on with things.
It's only now that this discussion is happening
and people are saying: "Has anything happened to you?"
People are being actively asked
and that's why we're having this moment,
it's like purification. Everyone's kind of
getting out of their system.
I don't think that people are snowflakes though
and I think that's really, really unfair.
And I think that the men who say things like:
"Well, what do they expect?"
I almost wonder if there's any point
starting a dialogue with them.
Some of the conversations I've had with people
I just think: "this is a conversation that can go somewhere
"and this is a conversation that can't,"
those kind of guys, I wonder if ...
No, you've got to fight it every time.
Do you think so?
Absolutely. You've got to have that row every time.
Even if they think you're a real pain in the neck.
But isn't it exhausting though?
Yes!
Don't you find it tiring?
But life is full of tiring ...
I've spent my time fighting, I suppose, a lot
and maybe people find it infuriating
but I think there are things you can't let go.
But how do you find time to do everything else,
like your job, which sometimes may not be about,
you know, correcting every guy that doesn't know
where to put their hands.
Like, how do you find the time to just get on
and not be distracted with what it is that drives you
and makes you really passionate?
Well, it's like only last week being on The Today Programme
with the disgusting Quentin Letts of the Daily Mail,
who, you know, I'm winning the argument, I'm winning the argument
so then he turns around and says, you know:
"She's such a glumbucket, she's so dull
"and I would like to throw her to the floor,
"pin her to the floor and tickle her under the arms
"until she laughs."
And you think: this is ... You know, when all of this
is going on it doesn't occur to him that that kind
of physical aggression, as done as a laugh,
is acceptable?
So, of course I have to write about it.
I just hope I can find the energy.
Ha ha ha.
It all just seems like quite a lot right now.
You know, there's so much going on.
What do you think that people like Theresa May
should be doing about these allegations?
Do you think that her response so far
has been an adequate one?
No, of course it hasn't been.
It's utterly hopeless.
She should be setting up, together with all the other
political parties an entirely independent organisation
that's nothing to do with the parties.
It has to be an independent organisation
that's totally separate to all politics
where people can go and complain
and they can follow it through.
Even then though, when they do, it'll come back
to the party. It's still going to make those people ...
They'd have to be very brave and possibly risk
having a black mark put against them forever.
That's so depressing.
I know, I'm sorry.
It is though.
I don't think there are easy answers
but I do think that bit by bit
if you have HR systems that are really well spelt out
and the rules are really firm
and they are really well enforced in every single workplace,
gradually, bit by bit, people do get the message
that they will be fired if they harass juniors.
Looking back to the 1970s, we were so thrilled
when Barbara Castle had passed the Equal Pay Act,
the Sex Discrimination Act, we thought:
"That's it, we've won! It's done and dusted!
"All you have to do is to pass a law
"and things happen."
And, of course, they don't.
It would still be 50 years now before we got equal pay
if we went on progressing at the same slow pace
that we're progressing at.
In fact, last year it even fell back a bit.
I think it's a real disappointment to find
that passing laws is almost insignificant compared with
the heavy-lifting of making real cultural change
that effects real people's lives
whether they're right down at the bottom or up at the top.