ON THIS WEEK IN SOUTH FLORIDA. GOOD MORNING, GLAD YOU COULD JOIN US, I’M MICHAEL PUTNEY.
>> I’M GLENNA MILBERG AND WE
BEGIN WITH THIS GRAND JURY
REPORT THAT CALLS FOR THEOUTSER
OF FOUR BROWARD SCHOOL BOARD
MEMBERS.
THE FINAL REPORT YEARS IN THE
MAKING EXAMINES SCHOOL SAFETY,
THE SPENDING FOR IT AND WHY
PROGRESS WAS LOST IN
BUREAUCRACY.
THE REPORT NAMES NAMES, MAKES A
CASE FOR INCOMPETENCE, DECEIT
AND PUBLIC PROPAGANDA TO COVER
IT ALL UP.
SEVERAL COUNT HEE DISTRICTS ARE
INCLUDED IN THAT REPORT
INCLUDING MIAMI DADE BUT THE
BROWARD SCHOOL DISTRICT GETS THE
BIGGEST FOCUS AND THE MOST
CRITICISM.
>> THIS MORNING WE ARE GOING TO
SPEAK WITH TWO MEMBERS OF THE
BROWARD SCHOOL BOARD.
WE HAD PLANNED TO SPEAK WITH
THEM TOGETHER BUT AN ATTORNEY
SAID IT WOULD NOT BE A
VIOLATION, OUR ATTORNEY SAID IT
WOULD NOT BE A VIOLATION OF THE
SUNSHINE LAW.
HOWEVER LORI RICH LEVINSON’S
ATTORNEY SAID IT MIGHT BE.
SO WE ARE GOING TO SPEAK WITH
BOARD MEMBER DEBBIE HICKSON IN A
MINUTE BUT LET’S BEGIN WITH
MS. LEVINSON WHO HAS BEEN ON THE
SCHOOL BOARD FOR 12 YEARS,
CURRENTLY SERVING AS THE CHAIR.
AND SHE IS ONE OF THE FOUR
SERVING BOARD MEMBERS
RECOMMENDED FOR SUSPENSION.
LORI, GOOD MORNING, WE’RE GLAD
TO SEE YOU.
>> GOOD MORNING.
>> GOOD MORNING MICHAEL AND
GLENNA.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON
TODAY.
>> YOU’RE QUITE WELCOME.
THE GRAND JURY REPORT AS YOU
WELL KNOW SAYS THAT YOU AND THE
OTHER FOUR BOARD MEMBERS,
ALLEGEDLY ENGAGED IN
INCOMPETENCE AND NEGLECT OF DUTY
AND RECOMMENDS THAT YOU BE
SUSPENDED FROM OFFICE.
WHAT IS YOUR SPONSZ?
>> MY-- WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE.
>> MY RESPONSE IS THAT THIS IS A
PLILT KAL-- POLITICAL HATCHET
JOB, IT IS RETALIATION BY THE
GOVERNOR AGAINST BROWARD
DEMOCRATS AND TO RELEASE THIS
REPORT RIGHT BEFORE AN ELECTION
AND A MAJOR REFERENDUM THAT WILL
BENEFIT OUR TEACHERS AND
STUDENTS THAT SON THE BALLOT ON
TUESDAY.
I’M OUTRAGED THAT THIS HAS BEEN
USED IN THIS TYPE OF FASHION.
>> SO LORI, LET’S JUST TAKE ON
THAT CONCEPT FOR A MOMENT.
THE GRAND JURY FOR THIS CON
SEENED IN 2014, LONG BEFORE
GOVERNOR DE PANT-- DESANTIS WAS
GOVERNOR DESANTIS.
AND IT WAS RELEASED BY THE
FLORIDA SUPREME COURT.
IT ACTUALLY WAS RELEASED A FEW
MONTHS AGO.
IT WAS MADE PUBLIC JUST NOW.
AND IT-- ASIDE FROM THE
CRITICISMS WHICH WE’LL GET INTO,
IT HAS A COMPONENT, THE GRAND
JURY WROTE IN ITS REPORT
SPECIFICALLY HOW THIS IS A VERY
DIVERSE GRAND JURY.
WE COME FROM ALL AREAS.
WE COME FROM ALL PARTIES, ALL
RACES, AULETTE NISSITIES.
THEY MADE A REALLY BIG POINT
ABOUT HOW THIS IS NOT A
POLITICAL DOCUMENT.
>> OKAY.
AND I GREATLY RESPECT THE
SERVICE OF THE INDIVIDUALS ON
THIS GRAND JURY.
BUT ACTUALLY GOVERNOR DESANTIS
DID STAND THERE, AND EMPANEL
THIS GRAND JURY WITH THE 17
FAMILIES FROM MARJORIE STONEMAN
DOUGLAS STANDING BY HIM AND MY
HEART ALWAYS GOES OUT TO THOSE
FAMILIES AND THE GRIEF THEY WILL
ALWAYS HAVE.
AND THEY STOOD THERE AND SAID
THAT THIS WOULD LOOK AT SCHOOL
SAFETY.
AND WHEN YOU READ THIS REPORT,
OVER THREE QUARTERS OF IT HAS
NOTHING TO DO WITH SCHOOL SAFETY
AND IT CERTAINLY DID NOT FIND
WHAT WAS EXPECTED FOR THE FOUR
ISSUES THAT THE GRAND JURY WAS
EMPANELLED.
>> LORI, AS YOU WELL KNOW THIS
GRAND JURY REPORT AS GLENNA SAID
WAS MADE PUBLIC OR IT WAS
SUBMITTED TO THE SUPREME COURT
IN APRIL AND THEN I BELIEVE YOU
AND OTHER BOARD MEMBERS WENT
INTO COURT AND ASKED THAT YOUR
NAMES BE REDACTED, TAKEN OUT OF
THIS AND YOU APPEALED UP TO THE
STATE SUPREME COURT WHICH IS WHY
ON FRIDAY IT WAS RELEASED.
SO I MEAN YOU’VE TRIED, HAVE YOU
NOT TRIED, TO KEEP THIS AND KEEP
YOUR NAME OUT OF THIS REPORT?
>> I AM NOT GOING TO REALLY
SPEAK ABOUT MYSELF OR MY
COLLEAGUES AS FAR AS THE APPEAL
PROCESS.
BUT WHAT I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO
TALK ABOUT IS WHAT THE REPORT
ACTUALLY SPEAKS TO.
IT WAS EMPANELLED TO FIND SAFETY
VIOLATIONS, TO FIND FRAUD AND
DECEIT REGARDING SAFETY.
AND THROUGHOUT FLORIDA, BUT AS
WE ALL KNOW, WAS TARGETED
DIRECTLY FOR BROWARD COUNT HEE.
AND THAT WAS NOT ABLE TO BE
FOUND IN THIS REPORT.
AND I BELIEVE THIS POLITICAL
WEAPON UNFORTUNATELY WAS DONE
USING THESE FAMILIES AS
POLITICAL PAWNS TO COME AFTER
BROWARD COUNTY AND THE DEMOCRATS
THAT SERVE ON THE SCHOOL BOARD.
AND PARTISAN POLITICS HAS NO
PLACE IN EDUCATION.
>> YOU KNOW, THE 111 SORRY-- 122
PAGE REPORT ACTUALLY DOES FIND
VERY SPECIFIC INSTANCES OF FRAUD
AND HE DECEIT, MISMANAGEMENT,
MALFEASANCE.
SCHOOL SECURITY, NOT ONLY IN THE
SCHOOL SAFETY AND SECURITY
COMPONENT BUT IN THE
CONSTRUCTION OF COLLAPSING ROOFS
AND MOLDY CLASSROOMS.
I READ EVERY WORD OF IT, I’M
SURE YOU DID TOO.
AND I FOUND PLENTY OF INSTANCES
WHERE THE GRAND JURY REALLY MADE
A CASE AND NAMED NAMES FOR
HIRING PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE
BEEN UP FOR THE JOB.
HIRING VENDORS WHO HAD SHADY
PASTS.
RUNNING OUT OF MONEY, POOR
PLANNING.
ON PAGE 72 IT SPECIFICALLY
MENTIONS YOUR NAME ABOUT TALKING
ABOUT TRYING TO ALTER THE
LANGUAGE FOR THE PUBLIC IN KFERG
UP SOME OF THIS ALLEGED
MISMANAGEMENT AND QUOTES YOU AS
SAYING WE DON’T WANT PEOPLE TO
THINK WE’RE RUNNING OUT OF MONEY
FOR THOSE PROJECTS.
WHEN THE DISTRICT ACTUALLY WAS.
SO THERE IS DETAIL AND THERE ARE
QUOTES AND SO I’M NOT QUITE
CLEAR SURE WHAT YOU THINK IS NOT
THERE.
>> OKAY.
I WILL SPEAK EXACTLY TO THAT.
THE DISTRICT WAS NOT RUNNING OUT
OF MONEY.
UNFORTUNATELY AND I WILL STATE
THAT BOARDS ARE POLLS HEE
MAKERS.
WE ARE THE GOVERNING BOARD.
ADD-- WE HAVE ADMINISTRATORS
THAT ARE HIRED, SUPERINTENDENTS
WHO RUN THE DISTRICT.
A THIRD PARTY VENDOR WAS HIRED
TO DO A NEEDS ASSESSMENT ON ALL
THE FACILITY IN BROWARD COUNTY
PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
AND ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES WHO WAS
NOT NAMED IN THIS REPORT
SUGGESTED THAT WE USE OUR STAFF
WITH THEM.
SO COMBINED THEY WENT OUT AND
DID A NEED AS SESMENT OF EVERY
FACILITY IN THIS DISTRICT AND WE
WENT OUT FOR A BOND BASED ON THE
VALUATION THAT WAS GIVEN TO US.
THERE WAS NO DECEIT.
WE WENT OUT WITH THAT AMOUNT AND
THEN FOUND OUT AFTERWORDS THAT
THAT WAS UNDERVALUED SO THAT IS
NOT FACTUAL.
>> TO THAT POINT, THE GRAND JURY
SAYS THAT THE REASON THAT THE
SCHOOLS DID THEIR OWN ASSESSMENT
IS BECAUSE THEY DIDN’T WANT TO
HIRE A CONSULTANT AND MAKES A
POINT THAT THE PEOPLE WITHOUT
DID THESE ASSESSMENTS WERE NOT
QUALIFIED TO DO SO.
WHICH THE GRAND JURY SAYS IS
ACTUALLY THE VERY FOUNDATION OF
THE PROBLEM TO COME.
WITH THE BEING OVERBUDGET AND
FINDING ISSUES AND NOT BEING
ABLE TO COMPLETE THE PROJECT.
>> IT WAS A COMBINATION OF THE
OUTSIDE FIRM AND OUR EMPLOYEES
WHO DID THAT VALUATION.
SO REGARDLESS OF HOW IT WAS
DONE, IT WAS SUPPORTED
UNANIMOUSLY BY THE BOARD TO GO
OUT AND DO THAT.
AND IT WAS UNDERVALUED.
AND WE CAN ONLY WORK AS POLICY
MAKERS WITH THE INFORMATION THAT
WAS GIVEN TO US.
THERE IS A LOT OF EDITORIAL IN
THIS.
AND IT WAS DONE FOR ONE REASON
ONLY, AND IT WAS TO COME AFTER
OUR FORMER SUPERINTENDENT AND
EVERY BOARD MEMBER WHO SUPPORTED
HIM SUBSEQUENT TO THE TRAGEDY.
>> YEAH, LORI, BEFORE WE RUN OUT
OF TIME, JUST ONE MORE TIME, I
WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE
POLITICAL COMPONENT OF THIS.
THE SCHOOL BOARD AS WE KNOW
DEFIED THE GOVERNOR ON COVID-19
PLOT KOLPACK-- PROTOCOLS, ON
MASKING, AND IT REALLY ANGERED
HIM.
AND YOU, YOUR PAY WAS DOCKED BY
THE STATE OF FLORIDA, AMONG
OTHER THINGS.
IS THIS IN YOUR VIEW JUST PART
OF PAYBACK FOR BEING DEFIANT OF
THE GOVERNOR?
>> I THINK ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK THIS HAS BEEN RELEASED
AT A-- AT A TIME TO CONFUSE THE
PUBLIC IT IS 100% BEING USED AS
A POLITICAL REP.
THERE SAY MAJOR REFERENDUM ON
TUESDAY THAT INVOLVES PEOPLE IN
OUR DISTRICT ALL OF OUR TEACHERS
WHO NEED THIS ADDITIONAL CON SEN
FRAITION, IT HIRES 500 SAFETY
AND SECURITY PERSONNEL.
>> HAVE I TO JUMP IN HERE.
YOU’RE RIGHT, THE TIMING IS NOT
GOOD FOR THE REFERENDUM.
>> IT IS QUITE SUSPECT.
>> WE UNDERSTAND.
LORI RICH LEVINSON, WE’RE VERY
GLAD TO SPEAK WITH YOU THIS
MORNING.
>> THANK YOU LORI.
>> WE’LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>> THANKS.
>> AND UP NEXT ANOTHER
PERSPECTIVE ON THAT GRAND JURY
REPORT FROM BOARD MEMBER DISEB
YIE HICKSON, WE WILL SPEAK TO
HER AFTER THE BREAK.
>> DEBI HICKSON WAS ELECTED TO THE BROWARD SCHOOL BOARD IN 2020.
SHE CAME UNDER NO CRITICISM IN
THIS GRAND JURY REPORT.
>> MS. HICKSON RAN FOR THE
SCHOOL BOARD AFTER HER HUSBAND
CHRIS WAS KAIL KILLED AT
MARJORIE STONEMAN DOUGLAS HIGH
SCHOOL WHERE HE WAS THE ATHLETIC
DIRECTOR.
ALSO A NATIONALLY CERTIFIED
TEACHER AND HERE WITH US RIGHT
NOW VIA ZOOM.
GREAT TO SEE YOU.
DEBBIE, WELCOME, WE ARE SO GLAD
TO SEE YOU.
>> GOOD MORNING, THANK YOU FOR
INVITING ME.
>> OF COURSE, LET ME ASK YOU THE
QUESTION THAT GLENNA AND I BEGAN
WITH ASKING LORI.
AND THAT IS WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON
THE GRAND JURY REPORT.
IS IT A ROAD MAP TO FIXING
PROBLEMS IN THE BROWARD COUNTY’S
PUBLIC SCHOOLS ESPECIALLY WITH
REGARDS TO SAFETY?
>> I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A
LOT IN THERE THAT RELATES TO
SAFETY THAT NEEDS TO BE LOOKED
AT.
THERE ARE THINGS ESPECIALLY IN
THE BUILDING DEPARTMENT THAT
DEFINITELY NEED TO BE ADDRESSED
IMMEDIATELY.
AND NOT JUST IN BROWARD COUNTY.
AS YOU MENTIONED, WHEN ARE YOU
SPEAKING WITH MS. LEVINSON,THERE
ARE OTHER COUNTIES, ORANGE
COUNTY, MIAMI DADE AND PALM
BEACH THAT WERE ALSO NAMED AND
HIGHLIGHTED FOR ISSUES THAT
NEEDED TO BE ADDRESSED
CONCERNING SAFETY AND DIFFERENT
THINGS.
SO I DO THINK THAT WE SHOULD
LOOK AT IT, WE SHOULD YOU KNOW,
LOOK AT THE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT
ARE IN THERE.
AND MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE DOING
THE RIGHT THING TO MOVE FORWARD
TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR STUDENTS
AND STAFF ARE SAFETY.
>> SO YOU ARE, I MEAN IT HAS
BEEN TWO YEARS BUT YOU ARE A
RELATIVELY NEW MEMBER OF THE
SCHOOL BOARD AFTER THAT HORRIFIC
EVENT, YOU,-- SARAH LEE NARDI IS
FAIRLY NEW AND DAN FOGANOLI IS
BRAND NEW JUST PUT IN BY THE
GOVERNOR TO REPLACE DR. OSGOOD.
BUT YOU SAND SARAH LEE NARDI ARE
MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT EXACTLY
ONCE JUST TO SAY THEY ARE NOT
GOING TO MENTION YOU BECAUSE YOU
HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING.
BUT THEY-- IT IS KIND OF AN
AWKWARD, I’M SURE POSITION FOR
YOU TO BE ON WITH US, AND
ANSWERING QUESTIONS LIKE THE ONE
I AM ABOUT TO ASK YOU.
THE REPORT SAYS, DETERMINES THAT
THE SCHOOL BOARD, AND OUTLINED
WHY, IS A CESSPOOL OF
BUREAUCRACY AND POLITICS AND
ALMOST INERTIA ON THE BOARD
BECAUSE OF INFIGHTING.
DID YOU FIND THAT?
ARE YOU FINDING THAT NOW THAT
YOU ARE ON IT?
>> I WOULD SAY I PROBABLY HAVE A
DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE THAN OTHER
PEOPLE.
THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE LISTED
IN THERE THAT I HAVE BEEN
COMPLAINING ABOUT FOR A LITTLE
WHILE.
BUT I, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT A
LOT OF IT HAS TO DO MORE WITH
THAT PEOPLE ARE COMFORTABLE IN,
IN THE POSITIONS THEY ARE IN AND
MAYBE NOT HELD ACCOUNTABLE.
OR SOME OF THE DECISIONS THAT
HAVE COME ACROSS AND PRESENTED
TO THE SCHOOL BOARD, THEY HAVE A
CERTAIN WAY OF SPINNING ANSWERS
SOMETIMES.
SO THAT’S REALLY FOR ME WHAT WAS
IN THIS GRAND JURY REPORT KIND
OF VALIDATES SOME OF THE THINGS
THAT I HAVE HAD CONCERNS ABOUT.
MORE IN TERMS OF STAFF AND THE
THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING ACROSS
THE DISTRICT AND WHAT IS BEING
PRESENTED TO US.
SO I REALLY AM LOOKING FORWARD
TO THE SUPERINTENDENT COMBING
THROUGH THIS, AND PULLING OUT
THOSE THINGS THAT I HAVE BROUGHT
TO HER ATTENTION A NUMBER OF
TIMES.
AND DEFINITELY HOLDING PEOPLE
ACCOUNTABLE AT THE END OF THE
DAY.
WE HOLD OUR STUDENTS AND OUR
STAFF ACCOUNTABLE WHEN THEY
DON’T DO APPROPRIATE THINGS.
AND THAT IS REALLY WHAT I’M
HOPING COMES OUT OF THIS GRAND
JURY REPORTING ABOUT RELEASED.
>> YEAH, DEBBIE, THIS REALLY AS
GLENNA HAS SAID A BOMBSHELL IN
THAT IT CALLS FOR THE GOVERNOR
TO SUSPEND FOUR OF THE REMAINING
BOARD MEMBERS ON THE SCHOOL
BOARD WHO YOU SERVE WITH.
WHAT IS YOUR FEELING ABOUT THEIR
SUSPENSIONS IF THE GOVERNOR
SHOULD GO AHEAD AND DO THAT?
>> THAT IS A DECISION FOR THE
GOVERNOR IT ISN’T A DECISION
THAT I AM GOING TO WEIGH IN ON.
BECAUSE IT ISN’T UP TO ME.
>> LET ME ASK YOU TO WEIGH IN ON
THIS THEN.
BROWARD COUNTY IS THE MOST
DEMOCRATIC COUNTY IN THE STATE
OF FLORIDA.
GOVERNOR DESANTIS HAS HAD ONE
CHANCE TO APPOINT SOMEONE TO
SERVE OUT ON AN UNEXPIRED TERM
ON THE BOARD, WHEN ROSLYN OSGOOD
WAS ELECTED TO THE STATE SENATE.
NOW HE HAS A CHANCE TO PUT FOUR
PEOPLE ON THE BOARD AND YOU
WOULD EXPECT HE’S GOING TO
APPOINT REPUBLICANS TO THE
BOARD.
NOT THAT THEY CAN’T DO THE JOB,
BUT IT CERTAINLY IS NOT IN
KEEPING WITH SORT OF THE
TRADITIONS AND THE POLITICS OF
THE SCHOOL BOARD.
>> HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.
THERE THE SCHOOL BOARD SHOULDN’T
HAVE POLITICS IN IT, RIGHT.
THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THE SCHOOL
BOARD IS TO MAKE POLICIES SO
THAT OUR STUDENTS CAN BE AS
SUCCESSFUL AS POSSIBLE IN
WHATEVER POLICY CENTERS AROUND
THAT.
SO IF THAT IS A DECISION THAT HE
CHOOSES TO MAKE, I WOULD JUST
IMPLORE HIM TO PUT PEOPLE IN
THERE NOT BECAUSE OF WHAT
POLITICAL PARTY THAT THEY ARE
IN, BUT THAT THEY HAVE THE BEST
INTERESTS OF OUR STUDENTS AND
THE EDUCATION OF OUR STUDENTS IN
MIND.
YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY ARE MAKING
POLICY.
AND AT THE END OF THE DAY THAT
IS WHAT WE ASK OF ANYBODY WHO
SITS IN A SEAT ON THE BOARD.
>> YOU KNOW, THE GRAND JURY WAS
CON SEEN-- CONVENED FOR VERY
SPECIFIC ISSUES TO LOOK INTO
WHETHER THERE WAS A REFUSAL OR A
FAILURE TO FOLLOW THE MANDATE OF
THE SMART PLAN, THE SECURITY
PLAN, THE RENOVATION PLAN.
AND THERE WAS ANOTHER THING AND
ACTUALLY YOU JUST BROUGHT IT UP.
THAT IS WHY I WANTED TO GO BACK
TO IT.
WAS THERE A SYSTEMIC
UNDERREPORTING OF CRIMINAL
ACTIVITIES IN SCHOOLS AND NOT
JUST BROWARD.
AND IN FACT THIS REPORT DOES
SAY, DOES SEEM TO SUGGEST THAT
MIAMI DADE AND BROWARD SCHOOL
DISTRICTS WERE KIND OF COOKING
THE BOOKS ON THE NUMBER OF KID
WAS GOT IN TROUBLE OR ARRESTED
AND DIDN’T REPORT THAT NUMBER TO
THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.
TRIED TO MAKE THE SCHOOL
DISTRICT LOOK SAFER THAN IT WAS.
HAVE YOU SEEN THAT?
>> WELL, I WILL SAY SINCE
DR. CART WRIGHT HAS COME ON
BOARD THAT THE ISSUE HAS BEEN
ADDRESSED AND ACTUALLY AT THE
LAST MARJORIE STONEMAN DOUGLAS
SAFETY COMMISSION MEETING SHE
WAS COMMENDED ON THE CHANGES
THAT HAVE BEEN MADE AND THAT
BROWARD SHOULD BE LOOKED AT AS A
MODEL COUNTY FOR THE THINGS THAT
WE’RE DOING.
SO I, WHEN THIS CAME OUT, THOSE
WERE ISSUES THAT WERE OF CONCERN
AND I, BEFORE I RAN FOR SCHOOL
BOARD, BEFORE I EVEN THOUGHT
ABOUT RUNNING FOR SCHOOL BOARD I
WAS COMPLAINING AND WRITING TO
MR. RUNCIE AND THE SCHOOL BOARD
MEMBERS ABOUT THE LACK OF SENSE
OF URGENCY ON HOW WE WERE
ADDRESSING SAFETY IN THE SCHOOLS
BECAUSE I CONTINUED TO BE A
TEACHER IN A SCHOOL EVEN AFTER
THE SHOOTING HAPPENED.
SO I WOULD SAY AT THIS POINT WE
WANT TO MOVE FORWARD AND I WOULD
SAY IN LOTS OF PLACE, AT LEAST
IN BROWARD COUNTY THAT THERE
HAVE BEEN CORRECTIONS THAT HAVE
BEEN MADE TO MAKE SURE THAT
WE’RE MOVING FORWARD AND BEING
HONEST AND TRANSPARENT ABOUT
WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH BEHAVIOR
AND SECURITY ISSUES IN OUR
SCHOOLS.
>> YOU ARE LIVING THAT IN A VERY
PROFOUND WAY FIRST HAND.
DEBBIE HICKSON, THANKS FOR BEING