FOR SECRETS IN THE RUINS OF THE
FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT."
THANKS FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.
I FOR ONE COULD DISCUSS ALL 17
BOOKS BEGINNING WITH YOUR MASTER
WORK, "THE MEZZANINE," VERY
FIRST BOOK.
BUT SO MANY CANDIDATES FOR
MASTERWORK.
INCLUDING THIS ONE.
READING IT DURING THE PANDEMIC
WAS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
EXPERIENCE FOR ME THAN IT WOULD
HAVE BEEN WITHOUT THE PANDEMIC.
I COULD HAVE FELT LIKE I WAS
READING A HISTORY OF SOMETHING
WEIRD AND NOT THAT OLD BUT OLD
ENOUGH TO HAVE NOTHING TO DO
WITH MY DAILY LIFE NOW.
BUT WHAT YOU DISCOVERED IN THAT
BOOK IS THAT LABORATORIES HAVE
BEEN WORKING WITH AND PLAYING
AROUND WITH VACCINES FOR GOOD
PURPOSES AND FOR SOME TERRIBLE
PURPOSES IN THE PAST.
AND SO -- AND THE NOTION THAT
THINGS HAVE ESCAPED FROM
LABORATORIES INVOLUNTARILY IS
SOMETHING WEVE SEEN BEFORE.
AND THEN BRINGS US UP TO LAST
SUMMER AND WINTER WHERE YOU
STARTED CONTEMPLATING THE LAB
LEAK THEORY AS OTHERS WERE AND
NOW THE PRESIDENT WANTS
INVESTIGATED.
HOW HAVE YOU SEEN THIS
DISCUSSION EVOLVE ON THE LAB
LEAK THEORY IN THE LAST FEW
MONTHS?
>> IT WAS A FASCINATING PROCESS
TO WRITE A BOOK REALLY ABOUT
THINGS GOING WRONG IN AMERICAN
LABORATORIES.
SCIENTISTS WHO WERE TRYING TO
WEAPONIZE VARIOUS DISEASES A
LONG TIME AGO WHEN THE UNITED
STATES HAD A VERY ACTIVE
BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS PROGRAM.
TO TRY TO TELL THAT STORY, THEN
BE INVOLVED IN THIS SITUATION
WHERE ANYBODY WHO RAISED THE
POSSIBILITY THAT SOMETHING COULD
HAVE GONE WRONG IN A LABORATORY
ON A TUESDAY AFTERNOON
SOMEWHERE, MAYBE IN CHINA, MAYBE
IN WUHAN, WAS A CONSPIRACY
THEORIST.
IT JUST -- THERE WAS A COMPLETE
COGNITIVE DISSONANCE FOR ME
HAVING LOOKED AT HISTORY OF
LABORATORY EXPERIMENTS WITH VERY
RISKY DISEASES.
AND SEEING THAT SCIENTISTS GET
SICK OF THE DISEASES THEYRE
STUDYING, AND THEN TO SEE PEOPLE
SAYING THAT YOU COULDNT
POSSIBLY EVEN RAISE THIS IDEA
WITHOUT BECOMING SOME KIND OF A
CRAZY, WHACKY TRUMPER SPREADING
FAKE NEWS.
SO IT WAS A WEIRD, WEIRD YEAR.
>> SO YOUR TEN-YEAR QUEST TO
FIND OUT EXACTLY WHAT WE WERE
DOING WITH GERM WARFARE RESEARCH
AND POSSIBLY EVEN USING IT IN
THE KOREAN WAR ENDS IN WHAT A
COURTROOM WOULD CALL A HUNG
JURY, WITHOUT THE ABSOLUTE,
CONCLUSIVE PROOF BEYOND A
REASONABLE DOUBT.
AND THAT PROOF MAY BE BEING
BLOCKED.
FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT MAY
NOT BE ABLE TO GET US TO THE
DOCUMENTS THAT COULD TELL US
THAT TRUTH.
WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT IS
HOLDING BACK DOCUMENTS AGAINST
YOU AND YOUR RESEARCH ON ITS OWN
HISTORY OF LABS OF THIS SORT,
DOING RESEARCH FOR GOOD AND FOR
BAD.
AND IM WONDERING IF WE COULD
GET TEN YEARS OUT FROM NOW AND
YOU COULD BE ON THIS CASE FOR
TEN YEARS AND OTHERS AND
SCIENTISTS AND INTELLIGENCE
AGENCIES COULD BE ON THIS CASE
FOR NEXT TEN YEARS, AND NOT BE
ABLE TO TELL US TEN YEARS FROM
NOW WAS IT A LAB ACCIDENT, WAS
IT A NATURALLY EVOLVED
VACCINE -- VIRUS.
>> I WOULD -- OF COURSE I WOULD
HOPE WE WOULD KNOW.
THERES A TERRIBLE FOGGY MESSY
FEELING WHEN YOU DONT -- WHEN A
TERRIBLE DISASTER HAS HAPPENED
AND YOU DONT KNOW WHY.
SO EVERYBODY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW
HOW THIS DISEASE AROSE.
AND I THINK THAT THERES A LOT
THAT CAN BE FOUND OUT, EVEN IF
THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS
UNDERSTANDABLY VERY, VERY
SENSITIVE ABOUT ANY SORT OF
SCRUTINY OF THEIR HIGH
CONTAINMENT LABORATORIES.
EVEN SO, THERE IS A LOT WE CAN
LOOK AT AROUND THE EDGES, THATS
WHAT I FOUND WITH MY OWN
RESEARCH WITH LONG AGO DISEASES
AND WEAPONS PROGRAMS IS THAT
EVEN THOUGH YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE
THE CENTRAL DOCUMENT, YOU HAVE
SCIENTISTS AND CORRESPONDENTS
THAT CAN TELL YOU A LOT OF
THINGS, GIVE YOU A LOT TO THINK
ABOUT.
I ABSOLUTELY THINK WE WILL KNOW
MORE -- IF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION REALLY TAKES
ADMINISTRATION REALLY TAKES
SERIOUSLY THE IDEA OF AN
INVESTIGATION.
THEY DONT HAVE TO PRESS CHINA
OR WAIT FOR CHINA TO RESPOND,
START LOOKING AT CORRESPONDENCE
BETWEEN AMERICAN FUNDING
AGENCIES LIKE NATIONAL
INSTITUTES OF HEALTH, DEFENSE
THREAT REDUCTION ACTION,
DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, ALL THESE
AGENCIES GAVE MONEY TO CHINESE
SCIENTISTS TO STUDY BAT DISEASES
AND HUMAN DISEASES AND INTERPLAY
BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM.
WE CAN READ THAT CORRESPONDENCE
AND MOVE FORWARD.
THERES NO NEED TO THREATEN THE
CHINESE WITH SANCTIONS, ANYTHING
LIKE THAT, JUST LOOK AT WHAT THE
GRANTS ASKED FOR AND WHAT THE
GRANT REPORTS SAID AND MOVE
FORWARD, WELL LEARN MORE.
>> AND THIS KIND OF RESEARCH ON
VIRUSES AND SEEING WHATS
INVOLVED IN MAKING THOSE VIRUSES
MORE POTENT WAS CONSIDERED
POSITIVE AND USEFUL RESEARCH BY
SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITIES AROUND
THE WORLD, INCLUDING IN THE
UNITED STATESMENT
UNITED STATES.
BUT THERE WAS ALSO ANOTHER GROUP
OF SCIENTISTS WHO LOOKED AT THIS
RESEARCH OVER TIME AND SAID YOU
KNOW, WE UNDERSTAND WHY YOU WANT
TO DO IT, WHAT THE BENEFITS CAN
BE, WE GET THAT.
WE DO HOWEVER FIND IT TOO RISKY
AND WE FIND THE CHANCES OF A
LEAK FROM A LAB SOMEWHERE,
WHETHER IT BE CHINA OR SOME
OTHER COUNTRY NOT WORTH -- THOSE
RISKS ARE NOT WORTH THE
BENEFITS, THEY THOUGHT AS THEY
LOOKED AT THIS.
THERE WAS A DIVIDE IN THE
SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY OF THE
WORLD NOT ABOUT THE VALUE OF THE
RESEARCH.
EVERYONE AGREED.
IT WAS THE QUESTION OF WAS THE
RISK WORTH IT.
>> YES, AND THIS REALLY CAME TO
A HEAD IN 2011 AND 2012 WHEN A
SCIENTIST IN THE NETHERLANDS
CONVINCED A DISEASE TO JUMP FROM
ONE ORGANISM TO ANOTHER BY
PASSAGING, AND THE AMERICAN
SCIENTISTS, MARK LIPSICH AT
HARVARD AND DAVID RELMAN AT
STANFORD SAID THIS IS NUTS,
YOURE TAKING A DISEASE, MAKING
IT WORSE, MAKING IT MORE LIKELY
TO INFECT HUMAN BEINGS THROUGH A
RESPIRATORY ROUTE.
SO A PHRASE GREW UP PAST EIGHT
TO TEN YEARS, GAIN A FUNCTION
RESEARCH.
GAIN OF FUNCTION THEYRE TALKING ABOUT SPECIFICALLY IS ENHANCE
ABOUT SPECIFICALLY IS ENHANCE
THE TRANSMISSIBILITY AND
PATHOGEN
PATHOGENICITY THROUGH BREATHING
APPARATUS.
IS IT A GOOD IDEA TO DO THAT NOT
BECAUSE YOU WANT TO KILL PEOPLE
BUT BECAUSE YOU WANT TO PROVE
THAT A CERTAIN VIRUS COULD WITH
A FEW MUTATIONS INFECT HUMAN
BEINGS?
IT WAS PREVENTIVE MEDICINE BUT
PREVENTIVE MEDICINE THAT WAS
TAKING THIS ENORMOUS RISK, AT
LEAST THATS WHAT THESE
SCIENTISTS SAID.
AND THERE WERE 150 OF THEM I
THINK WHO SAID -- DONT MAKE
DISEASES WORSE.
SO THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION SAID
OKAY, WELL LOOK AT THAT.
AND THEY PAUSED THE FUNDING OF
GAIN OF FUNCTION RESEARCH.
EXCEPT SOME WAS GRANDFATHERED IN
UNFORTUNATELY.
AND THEN IT WAS RESUMED IN THE
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BY THE NIH.
AND WENT FORWARD AND IS NOW
BEING FUNDED AGAIN.
SO A LOT OF PEOPLE SAID THATS A
BAD IDEA, MECHANISMS,
RISK/REWARD STUDIES HAVE NOT
BEEN DONE, AND I THINK THAT SOME
PEOPLE THOUGHT IN THEIR SECRET
RECESSES OF THEIR MIND, WAS THIS
GIGANTIC META EXPERIMENT
SOMETHING THAT LED TO THIS