let's try to settle the debate once and
for all is it time to give up meat and
turn vegan
much has been made of the benefits of a
vegan diet but how much of that is a
fact well to answer that i'm joined by
vegan activist ed winter also known as
earthling ed
he's a prolific public speaker who's
been invited to schools universities and
businesses across the world to discuss
the issue
while in the meat corner i have chris
snowden head of lifestyle economics at
the iea
ed i'm going to start with you thank you
for joining me today can you explain to
me um
you are a vegan activist so it's not
just a lifestyle choice for you it's
it's something you're very passionate
about yeah do you feel that you envision
a world where everyone eventually uh
embraces the vegan approach well
hopefully so i mean obviously i am aware
that not everyone in the world is going
to be able to make the options and you
know choose the choices that we have in
the uk especially but my hope is in the
uk we'll shift towards a plant-based
food system for all the merits that
plant-based food system would bring just
talk us through it then so people
watching this at home they might not
have heard of what the merits are yeah
why is a vegan diet better for you than
a meat-based diet well i mean veganism
is a moral philosophy so it's about
removing or at least eliminating as far
as as possible and practical the
exploitation of animals yeah so there's
a moral know obligation to it as well
but of course it helps the environment
helps the planet and there's also
personal health kind of positives that
can come from it as well but it is about
the animals fundamentally so yes so
you're not it's not you're not talking
about from a personal point of view from
a selfish point of view this is more a
kind of a global perspective yeah i mean
it's about trying to reduce suffering
wherever we possibly can and you take it
further than just vegetarianism so you
know i mean i've read i haven't seen but
i've read accounts of what goes on in
abattoirs and it does strike me as to be
honest horrific and um
but you would extend that to the use of
animal products for instance uh when an
animal's died of natural causes or
something like that that would also be
well not necessarily natural causes of
course we want to eat animals who have
died of natural causes because of the
diseases but this is more about the
human exploitation of animals so not
necessarily an animal who's dead on the
side of the road but the farming of
animals and of course the abattoirs that
we use even with with dairy cows
negligent hens of course because all of
those animals are also killed in the
same slaughterhouses in the same way so
it's about that human aspect of the
exploitation okay well let me bring
chris in on this because i'd be
interested to hear the counter arguments
to that chris thanks for joining me
today uh are you a big carnivore you're
a big fan of meat
yep
what is there to object to in what ed is
saying but it seems quite it seems fair
enough to me when he puts it like that
well people make their own moral
judgments don't they i'm not interested
in what other people uh eat if people
want to be vegans or vegetarians or
carnivores it's of no concern to me
whatsoever i hear the arguments i make
my own mind up everyone should be free
to make their own mind up so go for it
whatever whatever you want to do my only
concern about the the veganism and
vegetarian movement is at some point in
the future it is possible that these
people will become a majority
and once you get a majority of people
who think that something is ethically um
unacceptable then there's a good chance
they're gonna go out and try and ban it
so i'm all in favor of people being
vegans but i rather they remained a
minority
what about what ed says about the uh the
animal rights aspect to this i mean to
what extent i mean you say everyone
should have their own right to make
their own decisions about what they eat
and that's fair enough but if we are
according to animals their rights as
well don't they have to be taken into
consideration to a degree
no i don't i mean i think animals are
essentially there to be killed neat so i
mean that argument is never going to
cut the
the mustard with me particularly
obviously they're you know there are
lines i i wouldn't cross i've never
eaten field for example i've never eaten
foie gras i think there's such a thing
as unnecessary cruelty uh clearly and
i'm
happily sling people who torture cats
and dogs and things in prison for quite
a
long period of time not least because
it's usually pretty good precursor to
being a serial killer but i think um in
the natural world obviously billions of
animals are killed and eaten every day
by other animals i don't see any
particular reason why they shouldn't be
killed and eaten by humans so this is
going to be something ed that um you
will face routinely is that that of
course uh
you know chris is arguing from a
position of natural law there we know we
are on the food chain yeah are we not
there is something natural about eating
meat we have we have developed that way
well of course we've eaten meat for
thousands of years you know hundreds of
thousands of years and it's been
instrumental in human survival in times
of food scarcity but you know the
reference to other animals who eat other
animals in the wild well they do that
out of necessity and the vegan argument
is really that we don't have to do what
we do to animals anymore and that's why
it becomes a moral issue uh chris said
it was about unnecessary cruelty that's
why he didn't eat you know velar or foie
gras but of course we don't have to eat
animal products so it's all unnecessary
you know and to a dairy cow who's killed
for dairy or to a pig in a gas chamber
who's killed for bacon that's suffering
to them is just as severe as the
suffering to a geese or a duck who's
been exploited for foie gras so when we
look at this issue from that of the the
individual who's suffering we realize
that it's all unnecessary and that's why
it's all immoral but doesn't your
argument rest on the presupposition that
that uh animal life and human life
should be seen almost on a par and that
rights are recorded to everyone whereas
whereas christopher's argument is more
that human beings are more important
than animals well we don't have to view
non-human animals as being the same as
human animals to to understand why it's
wrong to kill them we just have to
understand that their right to life and
their right to their own autonomy
transcends the reasons we use to exploit
them so taste pleasure for example or
convenience you know that's what we have
to really kind of underpin with this
conversation is is their right to life
and they're suffering the enduring farms
and slaughter houses worth more than our
sensory pleasure you know what has
higher value life or taste fundamentally
okay so christopher when you hear that
argument um do you think that there is a
case here that i mean ed is trying to
persuade people of his his point of view
do you think that's ever a view that
people will buy into ultimately or is it
just something too innate about our
taste for
into meat there's more vegans than there
ever been before i think there's
probably more vegetarians than there's
ever been before a lot of people get on
and get off that particular um bandwagon
but you can see how you know you can see
the argument i don't it's not like i
disagree with the argument really it's
just it's that's the point of view which
i just don't hold it and you'll never
get me to accept that an animal's life
is worth the same as a human's life and
i don't think it's something you could
ever prove empirically either way you
know
what do you make of uh i mean there's
obviously been a rise of uh very
militant uh veganism with people for
calling for veganism to be a protected
characteristic within the law
do you think that this is something that
you would you understand in any way
well not really i mean i understand
there are vegan militants and i think
it's potentially quite a dangerous thing
because once you have a lot of people
who think that animals like that
chicken's life is worth the same as your
human beings then i suppose they feel
morally entitled to go around um
attacking people who who rear chickens
or whatever and you get this similar
kind of thing you do of course with the
anti-abortion crowd where you have uh
abortion centers being
set on fire and that's why we need to
respect each other's views without
resorting to uh extremism militantism
and uh and violence but i if i may say
so the argument that you know meat is
unnecessary and then therefore we
shouldn't consume it i don't buy into
and you hear this a lot from puritanical
campaigners that something is
unnecessary alcohol is unnecessary
tobacco is unnecessary music i mean all
sorts most things are unnecessary human
beings one of the things that sets human
beings apart from animals actually is
that we have a lot of things in life
that are luxuries are now unnecessary
they we don't need them per se to exist
um but they hugely enrich our lives and
there's nothing wrong with that in fact
it's a good thing
ed i want to ask you about that
specifically is that you know
christopher is making this point that
well you know there are all sorts of
things that we have that are luxuries
sure i mean so that is a persuasive
argument isn't it well not really
because the things that chris listed
don't have a victim you know our choice
of you know the music we want to listen
to or things like that there's no victim
at the end of it but when we talk about
meat dairy and eggs there's a victim at
the end of that choice you know the
animals who are of course been exploited
and killed they're the victims so when
we talk about unnecessary action from a
moral perspective it's about whether or
not the action has a victim and that
action is unnecessary alcohol
and smoking have a victim ultimately but
it's your own personal choice in that
sense but there are people who are
affected by your by your alcoholism and
by your passive smoking you know this
kind of and of course we should
definitely be considerate of that i'm
not saying that we should ban smoking or
cigarettes i'm not even saying that we
should ban meat dairy and eggs right now
what i'm saying is that we should have
conversations about the morality of
these actions to determine whether or
not we as individuals morally speaking
align with that i mean chris himself
said that he would be outraged if
someone did this to a cat nobody the
kurt zuma case comes to mind but the
real question is well why is that wrong
but putting pigs into a gas chamber
morally right so what you know where's
that hypocrisy where does that come from
you make a very persuasive case because
we're sitting here having this
discussion but i mentioned the sort of
more militant approach um do you worry
that when you have more militant voices
within this debate they're actually
putting people off your argument well
well yes and no i mean i don't think
that this idea of militant veganism is
really representative i think it's kind
of a media talking point that's been
blown out of proportion to be you know
perfectly honest but i see it's also
been something i can play to my
advantage because hopefully by having
reasonable constructive conversations it
shows to people that veganism isn't this
extremist ideology in fact it's just
this kind of extension of the values we
already have how often do we hear that
britain is a nation of animal lovers and
that we stand against animal suffering
and cruelty well i i like to believe
that's how people genuinely feel so now
all people have to do is recognize that
their morality already exists when it
comes to animals you know that's strong
morality and then work out whether or
not the unnecessary exploitation
suffering and death of a billion land
animals and when it comes to marine
animals much more of course in this
country alone aligns with that morality
indeed is actually contradictory to that
uh final word to you christopher i'm
assuming you're not persuaded by what
you just heard there
no i'm not i reminders of you the
animals at the most part are there to be
killed and eaten most of them have a
perfectly good life if you are a sheep
raised by a farmer you'll just be
basically standing around in a field
eating grass for a period of time and
then one day you'll get a bolt in the
back of your head it's a pretty painless
way to go everybody dies ultimately i
don't consider that to be unnecessary
cruelty in actual fact i think that a
lot of animals get a better death than
human beings do but that's a different
uh question maybe
obviously well look i didn't expect for
us to reconcile and reach a sort of
agreement at the end of the debate but i
do appreciate you both coming on and
sharing your views