JUDY WOODRUFF: From the raid this weekend that ended with the death of the top leader
of ISIS, to the planned withdrawal of U.S. troops from Syria, Vice President Mike Pence
has been at the center of U.S. policy in the region.
He and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo met over a week ago with Turkey's President Recep
Tayyip Erdogan. And, afterward, they announced a temporary cease-fire in Syria.
And then the vice president was next to President Trump, sitting, watching, as U.S. Special
Forces tracked down al-Baghdadi.
That raid is where we began when I sat down with Vice President Pence at the White House
earlier today. We spoke before the House Democrats announced plans to vote on Thursday to formalize
their impeachment inquiry.
Mr. Vice President, thank you very much for talking with us.
MIKE PENCE, Vice President of the United States: Good to see you, Judy.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Let me start with the news this weekend.
And there's been praise from all corners for the U.S. military, intelligence community,
the president, since he announced this successful raid in Syria killing al-Baghdadi, the leader
of ISIS.
My question for you is, does this mean the threat from ISIS and the ideology it represents
is now lessened?
MIKE PENCE: Well, we believe it does.
But let me begin by saying, as the world learned Sunday morning, this weekend was a great weekend
for America. The most wanted man in the world, al-Baghdadi, is dead. And it's a tribute to
the courage and professionalism of our Special Forces, the armed forces of the United States,
our intelligence services.
But let me also say, Judy, it's a tribute to the decisive leadership of our commander
in chief, President Donald Trump.
JUDY WOODRUFF: So, you say it's less of a threat, ISIS, and the ideology behind ISIS?
Does that mean the decision to move the U.S. troops out of Northern Syria is now more justified?
MIKE PENCE: Well, let me say first we -- we think the elimination of al-Baghdadi, the
active leader of ISIS, will have a measurable impact on that terrorist organization.
That being said, let me address your question specifically. The president has made it clear
that, when our troops went into Syria, in combination with Syrian Democratic Forces,
they went in for the purpose of defeating the ISIS caliphate.
And they accomplished that in March of this year, with -- at great sacrifice of Syrian
Kurds and great sacrifice of our forces, great professionalism and courage on both sides.
The last inch of territory controlled by the ISIS caliphate was captured.
And with the killing of al-Baghdadi, we believe that fight has gone on and will continue.
But the president's decision to move forces out of the border region was -- in a very
real sense, it was a reflection of the fact that our troops went into Syria to defeat
the ISIS caliphate, but they had evolved into being troops simply patrolling the border
between traditional Kurdish Syria and Turkey.
And the president -- the president said we didn't need to be in that mission. He announced
we were moving our troops out. Our troops are moving out. And now, because of that,
we have achieved a cease-fire in the region. And we're calling on European countries to
make that safe zone a reality.
(CROSSTALK)
JUDY WOODRUFF: Excuse me. Excuse me. Sorry to interrupt, but there's just a number of
questions I want to ask you.
But the reason I'm asking is because, as you know, what is being pointed out is the irony
is this, that this raid was carried out successfully because American troops were there. And yet
the president has decided to move them out.
So, if the troops hadn't been there, could there have -- there couldn't have been a raid.
The other point that's being made is that this raid was conducted with the help of America's
Kurdish partners. The U.S. has decided to leave those Kurdish partners to the -- to
the will of Turkey, who doesn't want them there.
So, there's a lot to square that circle.
MIKE PENCE: Well, first, let me take the issue with the suggestion that, if we no longer
had Americans patrolling the border of Turkey in Syria, that we wouldn't have been able
to accomplish this mission.
We have troops elsewhere in Syria. We have troops in Iraq. All across the region, Judy,
we have nearly 40,000 American forces deployed.
The Special Forces, I can't say precisely where, but the Special Forces that deployed
in the region would have been unaffected by the decision the president made to have troops
come out of the border area.
JUDY WOODRUFF: So, they weren't part of the -- they wouldn't have been part of this pullout?
Is that what...
MIKE PENCE: Well, I can't say where the troops deployed from.
But what I can tell you is that the president's decision to remove troops from patrolling
the border of Syria and the Turkish border had no impact on the capability, as we demonstrated
this weekend, of moving this incredibly successful assault that brought the most wanted man in
the world to justice.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And yet what is being seen now is that, after that meeting that you and
Secretary Pompeo had with President Erdogan, and agreed on a safe zone, not long after
that, President Erdogan met with President Putin of Russia.
They settled on a much larger safe zone. And the Turks went after the Kurds with will.
Hundreds were killed. There's talk in the U.S. of war crimes being committed.
So, my question is, was this truly a success, when the Turks got what they wanted in the
first place?
MIKE PENCE: President Trump sent our delegation to Turkey with one mission. And that was to
save lives, to stop the military incursion by Turkey into Syria...
JUDY WOODRUFF: But they...
MIKE PENCE: .. and to bring a cease-fire to the section of the border that Turkish military
were controlling at that time.
JUDY WOODRUFF: But hundreds of Kurds were killed.
MIKE PENCE: We -- there was fighting along the border. There's no question. And even
after the temporary cease-fire took effect, there were some limited skirmishes.
But, as General Mazloum told me, as he said after the temporary cease-fire became a permanent
cease-fire, what President Trump was able to secure from Turkey was a commitment to
allow our allies in the Syrian Democratic Forces to safely withdraw from that 20-mile
area along the border.
And reports are today that Syrian Democratic Forces are now in the process of withdrawing
from a similar section along the Turkish border in Syria that is, frankly, controlled by Russian
forces and by the forces of Syrian leader Assad.
JUDY WOODRUFF: But did the Turks break the promise they had made to you to respect this
safe zone, to go on and -- and create a much larger safe zone, which, in effect, shut the
Kurds out of a much larger area than what you had originally negotiated on?
MIKE PENCE: You know, I -- I -- our focus was to end the fighting in the area that Turkey's
military was present.
The discussions that they had with -- with Russia and with Syria itself about creating
a buffer zone along the border is something that, frankly, has been talked about for years.
It's -- this whole notion that we would essentially have a demilitarized zone that would be without
Syrian Kurdish military forces, not Kurdish people, but Kurdish people live there now
and will continue to, but also that, eventually, it would be without the military presence
of Turkey in that area as well, that we would create a demilitarized zone.
JUDY WOODRUFF: It just...
MIKE PENCE: And we're in consultation right now, Judy, with our European allies to bring
resources to bear and maybe well personnel to bear to -- to monitor that area.
The only thing President Trump made clear was that U.S. forces would no longer be deployed
along the border between traditional Kurdish Syria and Turkey.
JUDY WOODRUFF: So, it's...
MIKE PENCE: But the United States is fully prepared to work with and enlist the support,
using our diplomatic and economic power, of other nations to maintain a safe zone.
(CROSSTALK)
JUDY WOODRUFF: Sorry to interrupt.
So it's a success for Russia, who is celebrating this. Iran has come out ahead. And the Syrian
regime has come out ahead. Just -- that's a victory for the United States?
MIKE PENCE: No.
No. When President Trump sent our team, he sent us with one mission, Judy. And that was
to stop the invasion, to end the killing. And we accomplished that in a five-day cease-fire
that literally allowed thousands of our allies in the Syrian Democratic Forces to safely
withdraw from the area that was under control of the Turkish military.
But make no mistake about it. To your point, President Trump has made it clear that American
forces will remain in Syria, and particularly that we will be deploying forces to ensure
the security of the oil fields all across Northern Syria.
And we're going to be working very closely with our Syrian Kurdish allies to make sure
that the revenues from those -- oil don't fall into Iran's hands, don't fall into the
regime's hands, don't fall into Russia's hands, but they remain -- they remain focused on
ensuring the security and the stability of those hard-fought gains, where our Syrian
Democratic Forces literally won back their country from the scourge of ISIS.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Let me turn to Ukraine and then the impeachment inquiry under way right
now in Congress by the House of Representatives.
The president, as you know, says he never pressured Ukraine's President Zelensky to
investigate Joe Biden.
But there's now reporting by a number of news organizations, including the Associated Press,
that, as long ago as May, after the president's first phone call with President Zelensky,
that he was strategizing, anxious, worried with his staff about how to deal with this
pressure from President Trump.
MIKE PENCE: Well, that's -- that's not what President Zelensky has said. He actually said
there was no pressure.
In his conversation with the president, he said...
JUDY WOODRUFF: But the people around him...
MIKE PENCE: ... that -- that, in discussions that I had with him, that there was no pressure.
And I think any American who takes time to read the transcript of President Trump's call
with President Zelensky will see the president did nothing wrong. There was no quid pro quo.
JUDY WOODRUFF: But in that transcript, Mr. Vice President, the president mentions Joe
Biden. And he says to President Zelensky, "I hope you will look into this," in a reference
to what happened to Joe Biden's son, to Vice President Biden's son, and to Mr. Biden.
What did you think when you read that in the transcript? Did you think that it was appropriate
for the president of the United States to bring up a political rival?
MIKE PENCE: Well, I think the president has made clear that his discussion in that matter
was all about looking to the past.
But -- and I can tell you that, in -- in the president's call, when the American people
take time to actually read the call, which I know was greatly distorted by the way it
was characterized...
JUDY WOODRUFF: But what did you think...
MIKE PENCE: ... in the whistle-blower's report.
The whistle-blower spoke about eight different references to the Bidens. That was simply...
JUDY WOODRUFF: But it's just the whistle-blower, Mr. Vice President. It...
MIKE PENCE: And -- but the other thing, the other...
JUDY WOODRUFF: It...
MIKE PENCE: ... distortion, Judy, frankly, was when the chairman of the Intelligence
Committee read into the record before the committee a fabricated version of the phone
call.
JUDY WOODRUFF: But it's not just...
MIKE PENCE: That's why, any time this topic comes up, I always tell people, make sure
and sit down and read the transcript, and you will see there was no quid pro quo. The
president did nothing wrong.
And I can assure people that, in all of my discussions with President Zelensky on the
president's behalf, we were completely focused on restoring the territorial integrity of
Ukraine, standing with them against Russian aggression, helping to support their efforts
to deal with corruption in their country...
JUDY WOODRUFF: But I -- excuse me.
MIKE PENCE: .. and enlisting more European support.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Excuse me for interrupting.
But to bring up Joe Biden's name, the man who is likely to be, may well be the Democratic
nominee for president next year, did it raise a red flag with you?
And, by the way, it's not just the whistle-blower. It's William Taylor, longtime respected diplomat,
appointed by President Bush, reappointed by President Trump, who said -- and I'm quoting
-- based on everything he was told by people who talked to the president, that the president
was withholding military aid for Ukraine and the promise of a White House meeting because
they weren't committed to investigating the Bidens.
This was in the transcript.
You read that transcript. Do you -- does Bill Taylor, William Taylor, have credibility,
as far as you're concerned?
MIKE PENCE: Well, are you referring to William Taylor's testimony before the committee?
JUDY WOODRUFF: His account, the testimony, as far as we know.
MIKE PENCE: Well, I -- we can't really count on that, because all we have from the committee
are leaks.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, we have his statement.
MIKE PENCE: I mean, Judy, the -- the process that's going on in Congress today is a disservice
to the American people, and it's a disgrace.
I mean, to have impeachment hearings taking place behind closed doors, and the only thing
the American people learn about are piecemeal release, leaked apparently by the Democratic
leadership on the committee to the press.
JUDY WOODRUFF: This was his opening statement, 15 pages.
MIKE PENCE: It's just unacceptable, Judy.
The -- the committee ought to release the entire record of all of their witnesses, how
they responded, how they clarified points that they had made in their testimony.
And the American people deserve to know that. I mean, the...
JUDY WOODRUFF: Again, it wasn't leaked. It was in his statement that he released to the
public.
MIKE PENCE: Well, yes, according -- look, the American people have a right to know.
Impeachment is a great and serious matter in the life of this nation, and the way the
Democrats are conducting this so-called impeachment inquiry on Capitol Hill, behind closed doors,
is wrong.
And they should -- they should open this whole process to the light of day. They should release
all of the transcripts.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And they say they're going to do that, that they're moving toward an
open process.
MIKE PENCE: And they should also respect the due process rights of the president of the
United States of America.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And they say Republicans have an equal...
MIKE PENCE: In the last two impeachment -- in the last two impeachment inquiries, you know,
Judy, there were rules that were established where counsel could be in the room, where
due process rights of the president and of the administration were respected.
And that's simply not the case now. And I think it's why, as I travel around the country,
it's why so many Americans are so frustrated with this Congress, because, frankly, for
the last three years, Congress has been spending most of its energy trying to overturn the
will of the American people in the last election.
And despite the fact we have been able to get an enormous amount done, when we had a
Republican majority in particular, and this weekend's extraordinary military success and
the defeat and the killing of the most wanted man in the world in al-Baghdadi, shows that
we're continuing in the fight to keep this nation secure.
The S&P standard just set a record today. This economy is booming, 6.5 million jobs.
And then the American people look at this Democrat Congress , and its endless investigations,
and its so-called impeachment inquiry...
JUDY WOODRUFF: I think Congress...
MIKE PENCE: And I think the American people, Judy, are saying, enough is enough.
They really want to see the Congress start to focus on issues that matter most to them,
to their public safety, to prosperity.
JUDY WOODRUFF: By the way, you mentioned previous impeachments.
Lindsey Graham, who was in the House of Representatives during the Bill Clinton impeachment process,
said at the time, the day Richard Nixon failed to answer the subpoena is the day that he
was subject to impeachment, because he took the power from Congress, the point being that
Congress does have a right to investigate a president. It says so in the Constitution.
MIKE PENCE: Well, Congress has this authority.
And, so, the question is, why are...
JUDY WOODRUFF: And they're asking the administration to cooperate. And...
MIKE PENCE: No, remember, Judy, I was in the Congress for 12 years.
The Congress acts by a vote in the majority. Even that hasn't happened here. The speaker
of the House unilaterally initiated an impeachment inquiry. There's been no vote.
Members of Congress have taken no position on this inquiry. And most members of Congress
have no access at all to what's happening behind closed doors.
I think the American people just deserve better.
JUDY WOODRUFF: It's a process...
MIKE PENCE: I mean, if Congress wants -- if Congress wants to pursue an impeachment, then
they ought to do it in a way that respects the American people, gives the American people
all the facts, and -- and ultimately respects the history and tradition of the House of
Representatives, as well as the due process rights of the president.
JUDY WOODRUFF: They say these three committees will wrap up their work in a couple of weeks,
and then they will turn to open hearings.
If the House goes ahead and votes to impeach the president, what do you believe will happen
in the United States Senate? Do you believe they will convict the president and remove
him from office?
MIKE PENCE: Well, let's be clear first that I don't take it as a foregone conclusion that
the House will -- will vote to impeach President Donald Trump.
I mean, as the American people take a look at the facts in this case, they read the transcript,
it was so mischaracterized by the whistle-blower, and grossly mischaracterized by Chairman Adam
Schiff in his fabricated version of the phone call that he read into the committee.
But when people read the transcript, they will see, despite the reckless allegations
of many in the media, there was no quid pro quo. President Zelensky himself said there
was no pressure, that it was a perfectly good phone call. The president did nothing wrong.
And, as the facts all come out, I think the American people will come to understand that.
And I expect they will let their voice be heard on Capitol Hill.
But the other reason is -- is, I really think the American people really want to see this
Congress come together and work with this president in ways that will make our country
more secure and more prosperous.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Mr. Vice President, thank you very much.
MIKE PENCE: Thank you, Judy. Good to see you.