(revisions in progress) >> This episode of the Modern Rogue brought to you by Rhone.
>> Go to rhone.com/rogue
and get 20% off your first purchase.
>> Yeah, save money, keep us in business, look like a boss.
Okay, so if both of us
face the mirror at the same time,
and you chant Bloody Mary
and I chant Candyman...
>> Then they fight!
[laughs] >> Yes!
>> This is brilliant.
>> "Blood powers activate,"
and he's like, "bee power activate!"
>> JASON: Bees! >> --Oh, here's what it is!
Okay, okay.
So you got the one, and then you got the other
and then you realize we're creating
a Mirror Cinematic Universe
and they all have to come together to defeat...
>> I got nothing.
[burst out in laughter]
I was literally going, "Don't say Pat Sajak,
"don't say Pat Sajak."
[old film crackle sound]
>> Do you remember when you first heard
the legend of Bloody Mary?
>> Oh man, I was probably like, 10 or 11 years old?
Something like that?
>> I think I was a little bit younger, maybe eight years old.
What's funny is I heard two legends simultaneously.
One was the Bloody Mary classic legend,
but the other one was Green Axe.
Like you just stare into the mirror
and say, "Green Axe, Green Axe,"
and in my mind, they were like members of the Super Friends.
They might as well have been...
>> Green Axe and Bloody Mary?
>> Yeah, right?
>> The worst Super Friends ever.
[laughing]
>> I mean, the one leads to the other, I guess.
You chop something with your green axe.
>> Well, part of the whole Bloody Mary myth
is the myth behind it,
that's what makes it so effective.
>> This is what's so shocking to me,
is how little people, historians, folklorists,
really know about the origins
of where Bloody Mary come from.
Back in the 1970s is when people first started
investigating this.
>> It had been around since before then,
but everyone says, "Oh no, it's Elizabeth Bathory" or,
>> Mary, Queen of Scots.
>> Or it's Mary Worth, someone who was executed
for being a witch in the Salem Witch Trials.
>> Yeah, but they all have the same foundation.
Number one, they all take place in the bathroom,
with the lights, I've heard either off or very dim,
involving you looking in the mirror.
Of course, we joked about the fact that Candyman
appears to be some kind of gritty reboot of this legend.
But you say the words over and over again,
and what happens?
>> You see Bloody Mary.
She appears before you and she follows you around,
she steals your soul,
she haunts you until you can dispel her.
>> Touches your face.
>> Yeah, like a gross doctor, she comes at you.
>> So like a beady eyed doctor.
>> A beady eyed doctor.
>> Sometimes it's after a certain number
of times of saying her name,
sometimes it's after water moves,
so you turn on the sink or flush a toilet.
Sometimes you have to say, "I believe in you",
or "I killed your baby" or something.
>> Now these are all of the trappings that prime you,
they prepare you to see something, right?
They're just setting the mood.
None of these things actually matter.
>> Almost always, this begins by somebody
explaining the legend,
people deciding to try it
and that it ends with somebody screaming
and getting everybody to freak out.
>> Yeah, and everyone gets giddy and giggly and everything.
And it's really just an optical illusion.
>> Oh, that's a good point.
I didn't know there was an optical illusion part of this.
I thought it was all just the legend
getting everybody spooked and then somebody shouts,
but man, reading the legend on this,
there's some weird Freudian stuff to the background of this.
>> Yes, yes.
Some people theorize that, oh because young girls do it,
who are on the cusp of puberty,
this is really just...
>> In the bathroom and it involves Bloody Mary, forgive me.
I hate to say it, but that does kind of resonate,
I wouldn't be surprised if that factors in
to the strength of the legend over time.
>> Yeah.
One of the earliest things that they found
that might be a predecessor to this
was in the Victorian era,
women would walk up a staircase backwards,
holding a candle and once they got up to their parlor,
or whatever, wherever the standing mirror,
much like this was, they would turn around,
look into the mirror and they were supposed to see
the face of whoever they were to marry.
>> What?
That's creepy,
Well, and I guess also the idea
of the anticipation and waiting probably factors in as well.
>> Yeah, and you have to think about the mysticism
that's been applied to mirrors throughout history.
When people were ill or dying,
loved ones would go through and cover all of the mirrors
so that the sick person couldn't glance into the mirror
and see their fetch coming to get them
or the Grim Reaper himself.
>> Ooh, that's terrifying.
>> Yeah, so all of that, much like any folklore
or anything is, it's all syncretism.
It's, we're going to take a little bit of this,
we're going to take a little bit of this
and it's all going to come together
into how we understand it now as the legend of Bloody Mary.
>> So we got the legend, we understand that.
I understand getting everybody spooked and primed.
What is the optical illusion and why does it work?
>> Not too long ago, somebody from University of Urbino
Dr. Caputo ran an experiment on Bloody Mary.
>> They found her!
>> They found her.
>> They said, I can give you 50 bucks
and you'll get an easy A in psychology,
come on over.
>> And then there's some videos I can show you,
it's like the alien autopsy, but they...
>> So I assume they gathered a lot of people
they primed them with the legend
and then they did what?
What were the test conditions we want to replicate?
>> They had a 25 watt bulb so dimly lit room.
Got a 25 watt bulb there.
>> We had a brief terror moment where we weren't sure
if this was LED or incandescent.
We're going to assume it was an incandescent bulb
and that's what we got.
>> And then they had people sitting 40cm away from a mirror
and summoning Bloody Mary.
>> Do we know if they had to say the words or not
or just stare?
>> I don't.
I didn't find in the study if they actually said the words.
Sometimes you spin around.
If they flush the toilet or ran the water.
>> So what is it that's 'sposed to happen
in the test conditions?
>> Well what you're looking at is your own face, of course,
but it's dimly lit and you start to see a face in there
that may not be your own.
>> And there's some amount of projection
or distortion on there.
To be honest, when I read the study it reminded me of
the celebrity face distortion thing
and I can't believe that you hadn't seen it
when it made the rounds.
>> That was phenomenal.
I can't believe how fast and effective it worked.
>> As a matter of fact,
right now we're going to run it while we're talking about it.
Look at the cross everybody at home
and realize none of these images are photoshopped in anyway.
If you keep your eyes locked on that plus right there
everything looks more and more weird.
And it's because the brain,
number one, we crave seeing faces.
To be a baby, babies who recognize faces
and smile and coo are much more likely
to receive breast milk, to be nurtured,
and grow up to reproduce.
Whereas babies that don't recognize faces
don't tend to make it that far.
So as a result we see faces everywhere.
We see faces in wood.
We see faces in clouds.
We see faces in the freaking moon.
>> It's pareidolia.
>> Yeah, that's right!
>> But the celebrity face distortion thing
you're talking about is an effect of Troxler Fading.
To where if you stare at a stationary point long enough,
your brain starts to realize,
"Oh, we don't need all this extraneous information."
And so it starts to decay and fade away.
But then since your brain wants to see faces
it starts filling in the gaps.
And so you end up with some horrific things.
Now in Dr. Caputo's study
we had people staring at those faces
and they were all overcome with a feeling
of dissociative identity,
that they weren't seeing themselves in that mirror.
>> All right, so 40cms away.
I assume we stay still and not move
because if you're seeing yourself move
then I think that culturally you're going to recognize
the way you move.
>> And plus the way Troxler's Fading works
is that you need to be focused on a stationary point.
>> Okay, and so, I guess if we're going to go all the way,
we need to say something transgressive.
We need to get ourselves,
because part of this is freaking yourself out,
and only you can give yourself over to your own terror.
To create those creepy demon like images.
>> So what are we going to say?
>> We might as well dive headfirst into the myth, right?
>> You know that phrase that we've talked about before.
I don't believe in ghosts but I'm scared of 'em.
Y'know, 2 o' clock in the morning.
Try to get into that head space.
All right, do you want to go first or second?
>> I'll go first.
[chiming]
>> All right, I'm not going to lie.
It seems entirely too bright and I am highly skeptical
in this moment
but I do know that there are some stage hypnosis tricks
that you can do.
Because all hypnosis is self hypnosis.
>> Okay.
>> So, in your mind, whatever Bloody Mary means to you now,
invent something scarier
and truly try to conceive of it.
And as you say the words Bloody Mary
over and over and over again,
try to lose yourself in a rhythm.
I guess at that point,
you're just looking at yourself the whole time?
>> Yeah, yeah.
I'm going to psych myself up basically.
I'm going to immerse myself in the feeling.
I'm going to say the chant, "I believe in Bloody Mary."
I'm going to take your advice,
imagine something much more horrible than this cartoonish
blood covered Carrie in the mirror.
>> I guess, maybe take a moment and have your eyes closed.
And then you can just tell me when it's go time.
Because I don't have any idea how long this takes
or how severe the effect is or what.
>> Don't mess with me, right?
>> I won't, jeez.
[both laugh]
I'm so glad that you said.
I would never have thought of you messing with me
but now I know--
>> Oh I ruined it then!
>> I will not mess with you.
>> Okay.
>> If I start bleeding, keep rolling.
[ominous music]
>> Bloody Mary is a shambling mound of roadkill.
>> Like a Thanksgiving turkey mostly stripped to the bone
but with fat and gristle hanging off.
Along with her stringy hair and boney long fingers.
I believe in Bloody Mary.
>> Wow, okay.
>> What, what, what what?!
>> Yeah, that's freaky.
>> Should I even hear?
>> I don't know, I mean--
>> Should I just do it?
>> I don't want to poison you.
It's weird.
>> But a thing happened though?
>> Absolutely a thing happened.
Yeah, okay.
>> All right, I'll try it and then we'll talk about it.
>> Think Ganzfeld effect.
>> Yeah.
>> Behave in that way.
>> Okay, all right.
So I'm remember Ganzfeld, it was important,
stillness mattered and as something started to happen
I didn't resist it.
>> Exactly!
>> I didn't dart my eyes around it or whatever.
>> Okay.
[Brian clears his throat]
>> Stay focused don't move.
>> Okay so.
My Bloody Mary, I'm going to picture
something closer to the xenomorph.
Something alien and insectile, that's what it is.
I'm going to think of something insectoid and a red demon.
Okay.
[Brian clears throat]
[Brian exhales]
I believe in Bloody Mary.
[beep] it almost happened!
It was like I could see my eyebrows getting darker.
And then the moment I felt it, I ruined it.
>> Try again!
Try again!
>> Can I try it without talking?
>> Yeah.
Yeah, just focus.
>> Oh Christ!
Okay, no.
There was something definitely a strong sense.
>> That it wasn't you!
>> That it was going to leap through the [beep] glass!
>> Yeah!
Right?
>> I'm going to do it again.
[Jason laughs]
Maybe I'll try wearing a more pleasant expression?
Because I'm doing an evil face.
>> I'm sure a big smile would work great.
>> [beep]
Oh God, I can't!
All right.
Okay, okay!
That was even weirder because I felt a full on disconnect.
I think what happened was,
I tried to smile wider within my heart and in my mind,
that face didn't smile any wider
and then all of a sudden,
oh good golly, that's amazing.
>> My features went away, my head shrank,
my eyes had sunken in to where they were
empty small tiny sockets.
It was almost like there was a moment where I had realized
I had been replaced.
>> It is a very stark, very fast phenomenon.
All right, I'm going to do it one more time.
>> Okay.
>> I want you to scare me at some point.
Get back here where I can't see you.
I'm not going to talk,
I'm just going to have terrible thoughts and stare at myself.
[Jason's fingers tapping quietly]
[Jason screams loudly]
Not bad!
Not bad.
But I did notice something else that last time.
I noticed that, it wasn't just if my eyes flickered at all,
it was also if my face moved and I didn't see it over there,
it broke the illusion just a little.
All right, so it worked.
How does it rank compared to stuff like the Ouija board,
the Ganzfeld effect
or the time we explored the haunted house?
>> For me, as far as creepiness goes, this one's a the top
because it was much more effective
and we really set the mood pretty well, I think.
That's key to it working but you don't need it to do that.
>> Oh yeah, no.
Just staring at yourself.
I mean, I don't know what it is about my subconscious
that makes me want to turn that guy into an evil person
but it's highly recommended experience
just to understand your own psychology.
>> Yeah, you can do it without making it all spooky
but I recommend you make it all spooky.
>> Make it very spooky.
>> And now imagine that you really believe that
something like that is really possible.
>> I mean, if it worked already like this.
You know what, it turns out I do believe.
I believe in Bloody Mary.
Here, toast me!
>> We're on Scam Nation.
Is it just me, man, but I'm constantly afraid that
I'm dressing myself like an idiot.
Said the guy who wears flip-flops with jeans all the time.
>> Yeah, I am an old man,
I still don't know how to dress myself.
I actually still walk into stores
stares at a mannequin and go,
"I guess I should do that!"
>> What I want is the confidence of knowing
that I am buying apparel
that's going to outwardly express the idea
that I'm a badass who knows what I'm doing.
Question mark.
>> Rhone has figured it out!
>> Oh my gosh, for the longest time,
the only pair of tennis shoes that I had
were the ones that I use to mow the lawn.
Thank you Rhone.
Check it out.
>> They do match nicely with your jack-o'-lantern socks.
>> It's festive, it's the holiday season.
Best part of the year. >> Fine.
Look, here's the important part,
if you want to look like a boss who's on the move.
If you want to wear the clothes that exude
the quiet confidence of a CEO
then you got to to our friends over at Rhone.
>> Does this say CEO?
>> Rhone.com/rogue
>> I got to get a CEO pose.
>> Get a big old fat discount, keep us in business,
look incredible.
I still wear my pullover all the time.
Every time I order from Rhone it's a total treat.
>> Do you look like a CEO when you have the pullover on?
>> The worst part is I am a CEO.
>> You kind of look like a CEO.
Not a powerful one though.
You should wear your Rhone.
It'll give you power.
>> It's too on the nose.
[both laugh]
Too real.
Too real for this ad read.
[both laughing hysterically]
>> You do look like a CEO!
>> Today's episode is brought to you by imposter syndrome!
[Brian laughing hysterically]
>> Setting up the MCU.
The mirror cinematic universe.
[Jason laughs]
[crackling noises]
>> Michael Jackson.
>> The man in the mirror, that's who they fight!
Goddamnit, Goddamnit!
>> Too late.
[Brian laughing]