(cheerful music)
- Hey, everyone. Got a really special guest with me today.
This is Dani, and we work together.
- Hello.
- She is the writer that I work with at ConvertKit.
So we end up working on
a lot of projects together, don't we?
- Many.
All of them.
- Yeah, pretty much all of the projects.
- If I'm working on something, it's with Charli.
- Yep, there we go.
So I thought it would be really fun to have Dani
over here on the channel today to talk about
that designer/copywriter relationship.
I've talked about design and dev on this channel before,
but writing is a really important part
of the design process.
So, you know, let's get Dani's opinions on that.
The first thing that I would love to know from you, Dani,
is what do you need from a designer to get the job done?
It's kind of a chicken and an egg situation,
it can feel sometimes with design and copywriting.
Like I need the copy to lay it out,
but also you kinda need to know what the design looks like
in order to write the copy.
- Yeah, it's symbiotic.
It's hard to do it in your own channel.
You have to be in constant communication
with each other, for sure.
So like when Charli and I work on something,
she likes to do a wireframe first,
and when I get that wireframe I understand, okay,
well we need a block of copy here,
a block of copy here, we need some subheads.
And without that I would be like
what's this page supposed to look like?
I don't know.
So that's like step one, for sure.
- Yeah, which is very different, I think,
from writing, like Dani's the editor of our
online publication, Tradecraft,
and so with that you're writing an article,
you can have the headings wherever you want sort of thing.
It's very different than writing a web page.
- Yes. - Yeah.
- Yeah, it's a totally different flow, completely.
- And what do you wish that designers knew
about working with copywriters?
Like to help understand your process better, or something,
or like a way that we could make your job easier?
- Way to make my job easier, man.
Uh, write it for me.
(laughing) No, I'm kidding.
I wish more designers understood that it is
a constant communication situation,
that it's a back and forth.
It's not a, here's a wireframe, or here's a design,
fill copy with it.
It's a let's work together more often.
- Yeah, for sure.
- And I think people in advertising get that.
There's a lot of copy-design partnerships.
But I don't know if that's carried
into other industries as well.
- Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
'Cause I feel like when I started out,
it was weird for me to get to know this
'cause like I was used to getting a brief
from university where I got given the exact content
that I needed to lay out.
And so it was kind of like, wait, but I don't know
what I'm supposed to design if I don't have the copy.
What I've learned is that it basically breaks down
into two parts, though.
First is content, and then there's copy.
And the content is like the rough outline
of what's gonna be talked about where, sort of thing.
So that's what I'll put in my wireframes.
- [Dani] And Charli's really good at that.
- [Charli] Oh, thank you.
- [Dani] 'Cause sometimes, honestly, I pull copy
from what you put in there sometimes
'cause I think a good writer knows how to pull
from what's already existing.
So when Charli puts in something like,
we need to talk about XYZ, I'm like, yes, we do.
And I like how she said that, so I'm gonna
change it up a little bit, but it's like great.
- Yeah, that's a way that I like to do placeholder copy
that I feel is much more useful for you
when it comes to looking at a design,
rather than seeing lorem ipsum everywhere.
- Yeah, don't do that.
- That doesn't help anyone, I don't think.
I always write funny little headings,
and blocks of copy like, something about this,
but not too pretentious.
(laughing)
- And I'm sure that helps you as you're designing--
- Yeah, for sure. - To think about it, as well.
- Yeah, 'cause it is about, it's important to know
what's being said where,
not just what the words are gonna look like.
So that's the content, is the rough outline
of whatever we talked about, and then the copy
is when Dani writes the exact words
that I then put into the design.
And I like how we have a good relationship
where I can be like, hey, this block of copy
is looking way too long,
and then you can be like, cool, I'll shorten it then.
- [Dani] Yes, always have a thick skin.
Everything's changeable,
and it's good to be able to be moldable.
- [Charli] Yeah, for sure.
And likewise too, sometimes I'll lay out
with just like one simple little line,
and you're like, eh, we need a bit more space there.
- Yeah, we're not saying enough.
- Yeah, exactly.
So we can work together on that,
which I think is really cool.
What is one of your favorite parts
about our process working together?
- This sounds so personal, but I just love Charli.
I mean, I've worked with a lot of designers before,
and they've been great, but I've never had
the ease of flow that we have.
Like we get along really well on a personal level,
and I think that carries into
our professional career, as well.
- Like I think that a lot of designers and developers
have good relationships, like working closely together,
and I think it's really important for you
to have a good relationship with the writer
you're working with, as well.
- Absolutely.
- Yeah. - Yeah.
- It does make the whole thing just a whole lot better.
- And I think it shows in the products that we come up with.
- Yeah, I think so, too.
- I'm always really proud of what we do.
- I was just about to say that we're always proud.
(laughing)
Dani and I worked together on a book recently, as well.
And also the website that went along with this book series
and we filmed video about that with Barrett who is our COO,
and he was kind of like managing that project, right?
So if you want to watch that and hear more about
our process and how that all works,
then I will link that in the description.
It'll be on the ConvertKit YouTube channel,
and I'm saying that so I have to go edit that video now.
(laughing)
But yeah, thank you for being here, Dani.
- Thank you for having me.
- Any last words of advice for designers
working with writers?
- Just be open.
Be open, be excited about hearing what the writer has to say
as well, 'cause everybody has an opinion of what they want
this project to look like, and you need to bring
all those opinions together.
It can't just be yours, it can't just be theirs.
So find someone that you work well with,
and that you like spending time with
because you're gonna spend a lot of time with them.
And then just talk everything out all the time.
- Yeah, and I think my biggest tip would be
to not expect the writer to give you everything perfect
before you start designing.
I've said that multiple times in this video,
but it's really important to realize
that you can't, I don't know, use that as an excuse
to not start.
Dive in, put your own thoughts, placeholder,
talk with them about the content,
and then you'll refine as you go.
- Yep. - Cool.
Thank you for being here, Dani.
- Thanks for having me.
- Let's go have some fun now.
All right, thank you for watching, everyone.
Give this video a thumbs up if you enjoyed it,
and I'll see you in the next one.
- [Together] Bye!