[ Collier Revolver Development Timeline ]
Hi guys, thanks for tuning in to another video on ForgottenWeapons.com.
I'm Ian McCollum, and I am joined once again by Professor Ben Nicholson,
lead author of
We have your book currently in pre-sale on Kickstarter
and it is a fantastic book, two volumes.
There's a link in the description text below where you can check it out if you're interested.
And what I want to talk about today are the different types of Collier revolvers.
Because one of the things that your book does is
break this down into three distinct patterns of gun.
And they're all significantly different,
and I think there's a good interesting explanation for why each one exists.
But most people probably don't recognise this,
so tell me, what are the three patterns of Collier?
- Well, first of all, Collier didn't name his types of guns. - OK.
- He just gave serial numbers. And ... in 1971 a fantastic collector called Clay Bedford,
who worked on the Grand Coulee Dam, Liberty ships, and also the Willis Jeep.
- So you're saying this guy had some money. - He had plenty of change.
But he was an engineer and he was open to taking things apart.
And a scuzzy gun or a really good gun, didn't matter to him, he just wanted them all.
He ... had the largest collection of Colliers there was, 10, which is a lot.
- Wow. It's both impressive to have that many Colliers, and it's also
I think it's revealing that the biggest extant collection in the world was 10.
- Right. - Because you compare that to most other firearms.
10 is ... it's like, "Oh, OK," 10 means you're serious.
It doesn't mean much more than that, 10 Colliers is ... anyway.
- He owned 12% of all known Colliers today.
- And actually that would have been, what, like ...
a couple of percent of all produced Colliers ever.
- Yes, absolutely. - 10 out of 240, that's like 4% of all ever produced.
- Right. If you think of that with a Colt, that would be thousands and thousands now.
- OK so anyway, ... he's an engineer, he doesn't really care so much about condition,
he's just fascinated by Colliers. And he accumulates this collection.
And then he came up with these designations? ...
- Yeah. I mean look, he's an engineer so he knew what was going on.
He had the analytical mind to say, "Well, there's that group, there's this group, and that group."
And he gave the prototype the designation of "First Model." - OK.
- He gave the production flintlocks the designation of "Second Model." - OK.
- And then anything that was percussion, "Third Model." - OK.
- And he kind of mushed the conversions from flint into percussion into that Third Model group. - OK.
So ... first off, how many are we talking about for First Model? You just said "the prototypes."
- Yeah, yeah. - Was it, ... it really was that few? - Yes, it really was. I mean we've got today let's say 10.
And we luckily have prototype number 1, number 2, number 3 is known,
number 4, number 5, number 6, number 7 we've re-created with World of Guns,
8 we don't have, and we have 9, which is incredible. - That's very remarkable.
- That ... out of 9 you've got, what is it, 6 or 7 of the prototypes, it's a big deal.
It's made our work a lot easier. - Yeah, indeed it would.
So these are the guns that went through military trials?
- Well yes they did. I mean, the first couple
they were just trying to figure out whether this thing was viable.
And they're kind of lumpy and bumpy and they're made in America,
and they have a manual rotation system. - OK.
- So those are the proof of concept guns.
Then you go into this group of clockwork assist.
I'm not going to say semi-automatic, but ... in my mind it's there.
- At the time, that would have been an appropriate term.
They're automating something that wasn't automated.
- Right. I mean you pull back the cock, and it goes "ker-ching" like that,
and resets, the primer goes down, ... everything is done for you.
- And it's actually really cool that it's not done by a mechanical arm,
it's done by a wind-up spring. - Yes, yes it is, right, exactly.
- 4, 5, is all that they ever made? - Right. - OK.
- Well, all we think they made. Because the number,
once you get to 9, picks up again at the manual rotation. - OK.
And would that then transition to the ... second type? - Yes, yes it does.
- And how long did [the second pattern] go? - The Second Model? Well, again, we don't have those account books.
So ... you can only infer what was going on through letters
and gun reports that were being made at the time.
So let's say that the first Second Model came around 1822.
- OK. - And the last one came in from maybe 1826, ... yeah, '26.
And we reckon he would be building flintlock guns
as well as the new percussion guns at the same time.
- OK. That makes sense. - Because you're going to have people who ... don't have access to percussion caps easily.
I mean, if you're in India ... you've got nothing. If you've got a bag of flints, you're good to go.
- Right. That's an attitude that persists in the gun community today,
"I don't want that fancy new ammo, it's proprietary, and what if the gun shop stops carrying it?
Then my gun is useless." - Fair enough, fair enough.
- OK, so there is a chronological overlap between second and third pattern. - Likely, yeah.
- ... Was Collier the first one to make percussion Colliers,
or were other people converting them and then he just ... went,
"Oh wow, the other people are doing that. ... Like it's a good idea, we should do some of that too."
- OK, so just to back up on the time.
Forsyth invented the concept of percussion weapons. - Right.
- And I'm sure you've pointed this out before, but he was a Scottish minister in the church.
- Yes he was, yes. Who had this terrible problem of his flintlock was getting wet,
because he was Scottish, when he was trying to hunt.
- Well, but there's something even more delicious than that, is that
when he was using his flintlock, the flash goes,
and the ducks saw the flash and got out of Dodge.
So by the time that the charge has fired, they'd gone already.
So he was looking for a system where the ducks and the pheasants
and the grouse would not see the powder flash.
- Interesting, OK. And succeeded. -Yeah, he did.
- So, we're talking not that long after this system is originally just invented. - Sure.
- And especially the further back in time you go, the slower information travels.
... Today you invent that, and in a year it's pretty common.
- I think actually it went a lot faster than you think, I do think so.
I'm amazed at how quickly everything went.
Because they were making single-barrel percussion pistols
earlier than what Collier was doing, and he was just adapting that.
So he wasn't the first one who used percussion for pistols,
but he was the first one to use percussion for revolvers.
- OK, that makes sense.
So, do we have any idea either when chronologically
or when by serial number, Collier started actually producing his own percussion model?
- I would say around 1824, something around that.
And he had to make a whole bunch of design changes.
Because he had on the right hand side of the flintlock
the cock, and now of course we call it the hammer.
And so he adapted, he had to strike the percussion cap at a weird angle on the gun.
And it was Colt who brought the hammer in line with the barrel, that was a big deal.
So Colt was able to start from scratch, Collier had to adapt the flintlock system,
the geometry of the flintlock system. - OK.
- And ... if he'd stuck with it, he might have moved it over in line. - Right.
- OK. ... Do you know what the proportion ... of Second Model to Third Model guns are?
- More Seconds than the Third. And ... frankly Collier was getting bored with the project.
You can feel it, because he ... sold his patent, ... but before he sold it he ... licensed his patent.
And remember by 1828 he was done with guns.
He was on to ... ship boilers, which is basically the equivalent of the jet engine today.
- It would be, yeah. - Yeah, I mean you needed to get from England to India ASAP,
... using as little coal as possible. And he had some great systems going.
- OK. So he was very much an engineer and an inventor, not specifically a gun fanatic?
- Not at all, no. - We see some of these guys, some of the inventors, ... they're just single focused gun guys.
And they will spend 40 years on one project.
- I mean, if Collier had done that, he probably would have got to where Colt ended up.
And I mean, Collier went on to make nail making machines.
And some really interesting patents, ... we've studied and analysed them all.
Even, he's got a patent for making paper out of seaweed. - That's kind of cool.
- Yeah. So these minds were polymathic personalities. - OK.
- And you might say promiscuous but ... - Intellectually promiscuous.
- Yeah exactly, intellectual, thank you. We don't know about the other stuff, but one can only imagine.
- Do you have any idea how many of the third pattern guns
were made by Collier versus being earlier guns converted by independent gunsmiths?
- Again, really good question. There are some ... Collier & Company Colliers. And they are really beautiful.
Not collected with the same intensity as the kind of steampunk Second Model.
- There is something about having a magazine frizzen on a revolver.
It's just a little cooler than a percussion gun.
- Absolutely. We can relate to a percussion, but we just can't relate to flintlock.
So at the moment ... I think we've got 2 or 4 Collier & Co.s, but they're whole.
The standard of Georgian gunsmithing is there.
And all of the decoration is exquisite, and the finishes, and the browning.
You're basically getting a flintlock quality, like a duelling pistol quality, in percussion. - OK.
And then once he has sold his patent, quality begins to drop off.
Nothing bad, but it drops off. - OK.
And when did he sell off the patent? - Again, we don't know, but it's going to be around '26 to '28, something in there.
- OK, so there really is this period of like 1818 to 1821 he's developing the system and getting it working.
'21 to like '24, he's trying to get military patents. - Right.
- '24 to '26 is OK, let's just do the commercial thing. - Yeah.
- And then '26 to '28 is, "I'm bored, how do I get out of this, try to recoup some of my investment?" - Sure, sure.
- And then move on to greener pastures. - Yeah.
And remember he went bankrupt in England. - Yeah, the greener pastures didn't quite work out.
- ... No, it's not good. - Fortunately global extradition laws were not what they are today.
And he was able to skip out on his debts in England and escape back to the US
to become embroiled in a lawsuit with Sam Colt, right?
- He went out of the frying pan into the fire.
- Alright, well we need to talk about Sam Colt, that's a subject for another video. - Sure, right.
So hopefully you guys enjoyed this little explanatory look
at what the different models in the timeline of the Collier was.
If you would like a tremendous amount more information on Collier and Wheeler
and the fountainhead of all modern revolvers, take a look at the Kickstarter.
There's a link in the description text, we are currently pre-selling
Professor Nicholson's book on the subject.
And ... I'm pretty confident that that will stand as the definitive book on Collier and Wheeler.
There's not really anything left to be expanded upon from this book.
- No. With books you talk about them being 10 year books,
20 year books, 50 year books or 100 year books, we're going with 100.
- Yup. - It's not possible to write anything else. - Right.
Anyway, check it out, hopefully you guys enjoyed the video.
Thanks for watching.