The Deobandi Movement. The reasons behind its success.
[Hassan Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahib, we keep discussing different topics with you.
You also gave lectures in Australia on the different religious movements,
which arose in the past, what was the background of these,
and their features as well.
One very prominent movement which we find in the religious field,
that gave birth to many big, great, genius scholars,
it is the Deoband movement.
About this movement, how do you see it?
The way movements become successful, proceed further,
how do view it through that angle?
And the influence of this movement on the society,
at the global level, how do you analyse that?
[Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] If I ask me, I will say that
it is the biggest religious movement of our times or the adjacent times to ours,
[Hassan] Okay!
[Ghamidi] We have seen the Ikhwan movement also,
Jama't-e Islami movement also,
and many other movements especially that have arose in the past 100-150 years.
In the times of degradation of Muslims,
you cannot find a movement greater than this in the whole Islamic world!
[Hassan] Okay!
[Ghamidi] And in terms of its influence also,
it is a highly extraordinary movement!
It is known that in the subcontinent,
the British rule had been established.
Prior to that, more or less for around a thousand years,
the power of Muslims had been established here.
In that reign also, religious institutions of Muslims were also established,
big, great scholars were also born,
and also, activities of writing, research kept on going through them.
But when the English came,
and they started building up a new educational system,
a new social order and a new political order,
then Muslims reacted on the ethical as well as the on the religious grounds.
It is not the moment to explain the history of that reaction at this time.
What Fatawa (legal opinions) were given?
How was it tried to determine the status of Hindustan?
These are Dar-ul-Islam, Dar-ul-Harb, what has their nature now become?
And then the way, Sir Syed turned around the masses in the Revolt of 1857,
whatever results came out, you understand all these, in the background,
so these were the people who thought of this as a solution of the issue,
that if we have to keep intact our culture, our tradition, our religion,
so the only way to do it,
is that we take care of the religious education in the highest regard.
The resources had finished.
The endowments of the Muslims of the old times were not the same now.
After the English had come, the gifts,
endearments that were received from the kings,
or the scholars were patronised, there were no chances left to do these.
So this, we find some examples before this also
but on such a scale, it had happened for the first time
that an appeal was made to the Muslim public that they make the arrangements,
and the people who strived for that,
you look at Moulana Mahmood ul Hassan among these,
look at Moulana Rashid Ahmad Gangohi among these,
look at Moulana Qasim Nanautavi, they are highly exceptional people.
That's to say, in terms of their life, in terms of their character,
in terms of their scholarship.
Since the scholarship has come under discussion here,
as I have mentioned earlier,
that there are two big traditions of scholarship among us.
One tradition is that what you call Salafi tradition.
Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayim can be named among the great people in it,
and there is one tradition which came into existence
under the influence of philosophy and Tassawuf (Sufism).
The primary name among these can be said to be Imam Ghazali.
After him, Shaikh-e-Akbar Mohi-ud-Din Ibn-e-Arabi is also a great name,
and many other people were born in it.
In the subcontinent, if anyone holds the rank of Imam-ul Hind,
then, it is Shah Waliullah.
So, the religious work done by the religious school of Shah Sahib,
the intellectual, scholarly background which got created due to that,
take that too under consideration,
due to Imam Ghazali, the Sufi temperament
and the Sufi interpretation which became common among the Muslims,
understand that also in the background,
and along with that, as wardens of the tradition of our scholarship,
i.e. our ancient scholarship,
these people laid the foundation of this religious school.
I am not discussing here about
what is right, what is wrong in their point of view.
You also know, people also know that what are my criticisms against Tasawwuf,
or our ancient scholarship or our Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence),
what are the criticisms against these.
That is not the topic right now.
But precisely that tradition,
that's to say, if I illustrate that tradition in the words of Allama Iqbal,
then Islam began with Faith,
then it transformed into the thought, i.e., as a religious scholarship,
and then it changed into Gnosis!
That's to say, philosophical theology, philosophy, Tassawuf,
due to influence of all these facets,
a collective interpretation which is formed, keep that in mind.
So, these people are the flagbearers of it.
and they kept all these three facets under consideration,
i.e. one such religious school is founded,
in which great scholars of this interpretation are born.
It is, of course, intended to create great scholars only.
Obviously, then, people of every caliber get involved
and they learn according to their respective capabilities,
and there is no doubt that they have created many great scholars.
There is Moulana Husain Ahmad Madani or Moulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi
or Moulana Anwar Shah Kashmiri or Moulana Badr Alam Meerathi.
These are not men of ordinary caliber! So, I have counted a few names among them.
Very great people were created by them,
who followed that interpretation
and understood the religion in exactly the same way.
Along with that, the other aspect was
to try out those ways to inculcate piety and sincerity among the people,
which were found through the Sufi tradition.
Therefore, they tried to make a combination
of a Sufi lodge and a religious institution.
In the first stage, we observe that
the big, great heros, on the one hand, had interest in the educational sciences.
They solve scholarly puzzles.
They are teaching Adab (literature), Hadith, Fiqh (jurisprudence),
and on the other, for instance, there is Haji Imdadullah Muhajir Makki,
or afterwards, there is Moulana Raipuri
or similarly, with other great scholars also,
there is a sort of relationship of being guided by them.
They learn this path from them,
and especially, learn how to cross the stages of Tariqat (spiritual path).
So, this is the other aspect also,
and the third aspect is that the people,
who themselves laid the foundation of the religious institution,
they were Mujahideen (engaged in Jihad) in terms of their background.
The first task they did or their predecessors did,
it was to oust the British rule from here
and that Jihad also took place during it.
The movement of Syed Ahmad Shaheed was also present in the background.
So, due to this reason, he himself, in terms of his individuality,
in terms of his personality, in terms of his behaviour,
was also founder of a political movement in Hindustan, among the scholars.
Just as Mahatma Gandhi took an initiative
or later on, a movement of Muslim League arose.
So, this also in its own way,
in fact, it can be said that the movement of scholars
was much older than these other two movements.
They were the first ones who stood up for this struggle!
So, in this way, all these three dimensions were present in it,
and if you notice carefully, the forms of these three dimensions kept on changing,
and then it got manifested, i.e. it is the spirit of Jihad,
which afterwards led (the movement) to the government of Taliban,
it got created from here only.
That concept of the Khanqah, it achieved a new form
and with highly reasoning insight,
they formed a big order of Tablighi Jama't.
It can said that it is a mobile Khanqah.
You receive that training from it while being mobile,
which people, in some period, used to get by visiting the Sufi lodges,
and the people who came out from there,
you see, they established religious institutions in every nook and corner,
Deoband, in a way, gained status of being a mother (of these institutions),
Darul Uloom Deoband, many schools came into existence through its womb,
and these are in thousands of numbers presently.
Its influences spread worldwide, its alumni went all over the world.
They accomplished highly exceptional tasks in the different sciences and arts,
that's to say, if time permits, then it can be counted
that what tasks were accomplished in Hadith,
what service was rendered in Sufi discourse.
Similarly, what service was rendered in philosophical theology,
or regarding subjects of religious schools,
there is Mantiq (Logic), Fiqh, other subjects,
what services were offered in these.
So, it is a highly exceptional contribution
of this movement in its entirety, if you notice carefully,
and then within it only, as it was also a political movement by its nature,
Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind was formed within it.
At one instant, Moulana Dawood Ghaznavi, who was a great scholar of Ahl-e Hadith,
told Moulana Abul Kalam Azad that in our Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind,
there are Deobandi scholars everywhere,
that's to say, mostly, scholars other than that, are very few.
So, he replied, as Deoband has fostered scholars, obviously it will be them only.
So, if you look in this respect, Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind, in the politics of Hindustan
and uptil now, in the politics of Pakistan,
it is present as a strong active force.
It is present even now!
So, it is a very long history,
in which it has maintained its status, its solemnity, its way,
[Hassan] Okay!
[Ghamidi] And whatever objections you want to raise,
you will raise against the thought,
against their strategies, but to raise a movement on such a collective basis,
you will find no other such example in the Islamic world!
That's why I say, it is the greatest religious movement of our times!
The most influential religious movement!
Objections can be raised against its thought,
you cannot deny the nature of this movement,
its Jihad, its comprehensivenes and its infleunces.
[Hassan] Okay, Ghamidi Sahib, I want to ask this,
I want to understand, if we see in social terms, any narrative in the society,
even today, different statements, narratives keep on appearing,
you have your own point of view, a complete school of thought.
If anyone, among the knowledgeable people, wants to promote his ideas in the society,
he wants to reach to grass roots level,
to transform his intellectual premises into political statements,
to promote his point of view at global level,
people should adopt it as their own point of view and statement.
So, the steps you need to take, for instance,
you want your ideas to penetrate into the society,
so the first step for that, e.g.
if we keep the Deobandi Movement in view,
it is a successful movement, you yourself stated that.
So, how did it begin?
i.e. in the beginning, do you have to create intellectuals of your thought?
Then after it, will they directly address the society?
What is the procedure behind the success of the movements?
[Ghamidi] It is exactly the same which Deoband had adopted!
It is teaching and learning!
That's to say, you prepare the people.
When people will understand the religion,
in the way in which something ought to be understood, in its essence,
they will understand it in the context of its complete tradition,
and in terms of scholarship, they will understand it with maturity.
Such type of people will be born.
So, the capabilities of people are then distinct.
There are such people who are interested in politics,
there are such people who completely become scholars who teach in madrassas,
there are such people also,
who are interested in the education, training of the people,
or in the betterment of the common masses.
So, different people will work acccording to their capabilities.
The fundamental thought remains the same.
That's to say, according to his capability,
every scholar will engage in tasks of writing and research as well.
But if you want it to make a movement or Tehreek,
then there is only one methodology, and it is teaching and learning!
Rest of the things will be created through it.
[Hassan] Okay!
[Ghamidi] Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind also came into existence
as a consequence of that teaching and learning.
In the same way, the Jihadi movements, you witnessed afterwards,
these also were created as a result of it.
Tablighi Jama't was also born from its womb only.
So, all of these activities will appear as per their respective capabilities.
But the original methodology or the original way,
the original path is teaching and learning only.
Now, the modes, means of the teaching and learning,
these will keep changing in the world.
In the current times, the means that have been created,
you see major, big universities are moving towards online education.
So, its status is that of the means.
The period you belong to, you take benefits of the means prevalent then.
i.e. at one time Salah was offered by keeping Mukabbirs
Now, loudspeakers are used.
So, it is related to the means.
The fundamental point is that
research, writing, teaching, and learning is precisely the job of scholars.
To organise these, to give it a regular form of the institution,
obviously its effects will gradually become extraordinary,
and if you do not want to do anything,
and you want to spend life alone only, still you will do the same job!
[Hassan] Okay Ghamidi Sahib!
One more aspect, I want to understand from you
you mentioned that the traditional interpretation of the religion,
which is an order of thought of our Salaf,
a tradition to understand the religion,
that is being promoted worldwide.
Scholars are born, in Egypt and Syria also, in Marrakesh and Iran also.
But I want to know that when
this Deobandi movement carried forward that tradition of scholarship,
so, when you say that great people were born through it,
so that great person, it is an obvious fact,
he will give a new presentation to that scholarship,
give it a new diction, it will also have some reasoning insight.
So, do you think that this scholarship of Salaf which was prevalent,
Deobandi scholars provided it a new presentation, new idiom,
new philosophical theology, new structure, to prove it to be relevant to the society?
[Ghamidi] This tradition had precisely begun with Shah Waliullah.
The work of Shah Sahib himself, is based on the observational insights,
and the scholars of Deoband are quite often highly influenced by him,
they have, in a way, gained inspiration through that school of thought only.
So, among them also, you will witness all these influences.
But some concepts were defined,
and when you define some concepts, then, it also leads to some consequences.
One is that Taqlid was accepted as a principle,
a particular connection to Hanafi Fiqh was given the utmost regard,
and opinions of other leaders have reached us,
they have said that they had spent their entire life
following Imam Abu Hanifa's point of view
or in the defense of his school of thought
So, it was a general inclination of all,
and the second concept was that,
what is the modern world? What are its sciences?
What can be the effects of it?
Where did that old cultural edifice disappear?
The ancient sciences among us, there was philosophy, Greek philosophy,
in the same way, there was philosophical theology, how much relevant is it now?
What connection of Fiqh will now be established?
How will it be relevant? It is, anyway, human work.
They completely ignored all these concepts.
[Hassan] Okay!
[Ghamidi] And holding that old tradition firmly,
they induced this huge task, a big movement,
and this is the aspect which we,
we must say, people like us, keep in view, to criticize them also,
considering their complete honour and respect,
we try to say that a mistake was committed here.