[ Music ]
>> Voiceover: Stanford University.
[ Crowd noises ]
[ Speaker coming to podium ]
[ Inaudible ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: Allow me to welcome you all back.
I hope you had a leisurely and congenial lunch.
In our third session today we're going to be making a shift.
We'll continue with the theme of research and experiment.
But we'll be focusing in particular on the cultivation,
the practices which cultivate compassion in us.
And then examining whether or not those practices
as we have them designed by Thupten Jinpa
and his team whether they are effective.
We have in addition
to His Holiness the Dalai Lama for this session.
We have Erika Rosenberg.
You want to say hello, Erika?
Who's a Consulting Scientist, Center for Mind and Brain
at the University of California, Davis.
And is also a meditation teacher at the Nyingma Institute
of Tibetan Studies in Berkeley.
In her work she aims to bring together the tools
of both science and practice to help people find happiness
and freedom from suffering, in her own words.
Thank you.
Second we have Phillipe Goldin who's the head of the Clinical.
[ Applause ]
Who's a Senior Research Scientist and head
of the Clinically Applied Affective Neuroscience Lab.
And then finally Jeanne Tsai who is an Associate Director.
Who is Associate Professor in the Psychology Department
at Stanford, and Director of the Stanford Culture
and Emotion Laboratory,
which examines how people's cultural ideas
and practices shape their emotions.
So we have a distinguished group together with us today.
And we're going to start with Erika.
Please.
>> Dr. Rosenberg: Thank you.
First let me thank you for your inspiration to all of us.
And for your inspiration for the project
that I'm going to tell you about.
You spoke yesterday so eloquently about the importance
of compassion training.
Of making this available to as many people as possible.
And for having something that's not wedded
to any particular religious point of view or world view.
And at CCARE that's been part of our mission.
It's the Center for Compassion
and Altruism Research and Education.
Linda talked earlier about some of the work that's being done
in schools, bringing emotional learning together
with mindfulness.
And what I'm going to present today is an eight-week training
program that we've developed here under the leadership
of my esteemed colleague, Thupten Jinpa.
We're really working from this question.
Can compassion be cultivated?
And we think the answer to this is yes.
But the idea here is that we want to connect
into that very inherent nature that we all have.
I think there's been a lot of research presented today to say
that we're really wired for compassion.
As mammals we have a strong nurturing instinct.
But for some reason, in this culture in particular,
we've gotten separated from that.
And so the idea with any kind of training program is to reconnect
with that basic good nature.
Reconnect with that basic inclination
to care for one another.
And importantly, and I think we've touched on this
with a couple speakers, the importance of taking care
of ourselves and remembering to be kind to ourselves,
so that all fits into our view.
So we had a few key aims in the development of this program.
One, as I said, that it be secular.
We want to reach as many people as possible
so that you do not have to be Buddhist in background,
or have any particular religious orientation.
That it should be widely accessible
to a wide range of people.
Going along with that is the idea of simplicity.
That you, anybody from a wide range of education levels
or socioeconomic status would be able to learn this if they come,
if they show up to the class
with the proper motivation to develop this.
That the tools should be accessible to many, many people.
What goes along, I think follows from these two goals of secular
and secularity, I don't know if that's a word, and simplicity is
that it be standardized.
And standardized.
[ Jinpa translating ]
Yes. So what we mean by that is that it's laid out,
if we prepare a manual, which we have, that it's laid out in
such a way that any qualified teacher would be teaching the
same skills in the same way.
And this is of utmost important for dissemination.
We want to disseminate it widely so we have to know
that it would be taught in the same way by different people.
[ Jinpa translating ]
But this is...
the standardization is also really important for research.
This is as much a research tool as an education tool.
So if we want at first to see
if we can effectively train compassion, or if we also want
to ask questions like does compassion training benefit
caregivers of people with Alzheimer's Disease?
People who are going through an extreme amount of stress
in their giving relationship?
We need to know that if we administer training to more
than one group of people
that they're getting it in the same way.
So that's why standardization was a key concern.
So over the course of eight weeks,
and we meet once a week for two hours.
And there are home practices.
People have home exercises they do every day.
We are building a progression of skills.
This, we start with settling the mind.
We are making no assumptions that people coming
in to this class will have any experience with meditation.
Some of them might, and we've have students
from a wide range of skill levels.
But it is of the utmost importance that people be able
to calm the body, calm the mind,
learn how to sustain attention and stabilize it.
And be able to return to an object of focus
in spite of distraction.
So this is, as you know, foundational for doing any kind
of inner contemplative work.
But especially for, we build on that by bringing them more
in tune with the changes in their bodies
that they experience when they're feeling emotions,
when they're connecting to other people's emotions.
So we always have a strong foundation of settling the mind.
And that is sort of like preparing the ground
for reconnecting with the heart.
Again, this is an intrinsic nature,
so they've created the spaciousness.
Maybe they can notice that quality
within themselves more readily.
And we work explicitly with practices for opening the heart.
Starting with, as is traditional, those people
with whom it's easiest to think, to extend compassion,
so we start working with a loved one.
And having the students work with connecting their, you know,
really conjuring up their feelings of concern
when a loved one was suffering,
and extending loving kindness to a loved one.
Once we've moistened the heart,
if you will to use Jinpa's words, and made that more...
[ Jinpa translating ]
Yeah. Prepared them, it's easier now.
We actually encourage them to kind of look
within toward themselves, and reconnect with that sense
of caring for one's self.
As we've discussed, and I think you've discussed
in other forums, for Westerners in particular it's difficult
to direct love or compassion toward one's self.
But we, you know, we try to make it plain, you know.
You take care of your basic hygiene.
You take care of your food and clothing.
You take care of yourself emotionally,
and self-soothing is a very basic thing.
So contextualizing that is self-care.
Once we've worked with that,
we kind of pave the way for moving out.
Broadening that circle of inclusiveness, and really trying
to cultivate an empathic connection with other beings.
Reminding them
of the fundamental similarities, sameness.
You talked about this yesterday as well, that in spite
of all our superficial dissimilarities,
we all want the same thing.
We all want happiness and its causes.
We all want to be free from suffering and its causes.
And that's just, it's so simple.
But, you know, we get into that it's almost a revelation
for people to connect with that
in an experiential way and remember that.
So we do a lot of work with cultivating connection,
and recognizing interdependence.
And that sort of sets the stage for starting
to move out even more.
Broadening the circle of inclusiveness not just
to loved ones, but to strangers and people
with whom their relationships are different.
And beginning to work to generate active compassion.
So this is what we work with over eight weeks.
And we rely on a variety of techniques to do this,
so I thought the best way to illustrate this would be
to show you an example class.
This is sort of the setup for week four when we work
on cultivating connection.
We begin as always with settling the mind.
Every class begins with this.
[ Jinpa translating ]
So we start each class with settling the mind just to kind
of create a foundation, create a space.
And everybody's coming from different places
after work just to bring it all home.
Then we move out into a discussion
of what the theme of the week is.
And in this case it's Connection and Interdependence.
Here we really ask our instructors to draw
on a wide variety of areas.
So we might from Buddhist psychology talk
about interdependence, you know.
And just simply the idea of how our actions affect others,
and others' actions affect us.
And developing an appreciation for how everybody
around us really wants the same thing,
this fundamental wish for happiness.
And we also might draw on some ideas or concepts or findings
from Western psychology or neuroscience.
Talking about empathy research or maybe, you know,
neural neurons in this case.
That would be relevant.
Really broadening it out.
Then we'll do a Western exercise,
a more Western-derived exercise plus guided meditations.
And in this class the Western exercise is done in pairs.
We break people up into pairs, and it's a talking
and listening exercise and.
[ Jinpa translating ]
So in this case the speaker is told to talk
about something that's happened recently
where they had great disappointment or suffering,
and to share that with the listener.
And the listener's job is
to actively listen silently, not to offer advice.
But more importantly to try to imagine what it might have felt
like to be in this person's shoes.
What, and really conjure up in their body this feeling.
So we're really working on the empathic shared feeling.
And as we know from several theories
of compassion this resonance, this sharing
of the feeling is crucial in the development of reaching
out land wishing to help.
Then we'll have a 30-minute guided meditation practice
in terms of.
In this class we work on extending the circle
of compassion, recognizing importantly the shared
aspirations of all beings.
And there's a nice little imagery exercise we go
through of recognizing
for example how many people are responsible
for bringing you here to this moment,
and having clothes and food to eat.
And all these countless individuals who you don't see,
and to develop a wide net of appreciation.
And then we have some of those guided meditations they do
as part of their daily home practice.
And we might also have a practical exercise
such as gratitude practice.
Where at the end of the day they think of all that they have
that they're thankful for.
So just to wrap up, we've offered this course.
We've done it four complete times.
We have two classes underway.
Jeanne and Phillipe will talk about some
of our initial research efforts
to establish the effectiveness of this.
And what we're doing now is trying to train more teachers
so we can offer this widely.
And extend the research beyond the effectiveness to look
into some groups of people such as those listed here,
Care Cultivation teachers
who might be especially in need of this.
And just I want to thank, acknowledge Jinpa
in his key role in the development of this program
as the main author of the training.
With the contribute, myself and my other colleagues at CCARE
who have contributed to the development
of the training program.
And CCARE for making this happen.
>> Addressor: Thank you very much, Erika.
[ Applause ]
And now we'll switch speakers.
Phillipe Goldin will take on the chair.
Thank you very much, Erika, for a window into the training
that you provide into cultivation of compassion.
>> Dr. Goldin: So thank you very much for being here.
And this is just briefly some initial results from courses
that have been taught by Erika and Kelly McGonagall.
Simply the goal is how does this compassion training influence
social response to others,
especially others who are suffering?
Emotions that we have?
And attention?
So far 32 healthy adults, roughly 39 years old adults
in the community, not students.
And here I'm going to just show some data related to one task
that we called the Care Video.
We showed videos of real people describing their own suffering
in their own words.
And the question is, does the compassion training
that Thupten Jinpa and others put together,
does it really affect how we care for other people?
How we work with our emotions?
And also how it might influence our attention.
So I'm going to show a video clip, just a part,
of a person describing their own suffering.
[ Silence ]
l
>> Interviewee: Oh, my father died
of congestive heart failure.
And it's one of these things that kind of took, you know,
a couple of years to ultimately take its course.
A few days before he died, about the week before,
I had a business trip scheduled.
And I got a call from my sister
that he had been admitted to the hospital.
Like well, you know, should I schedule my business trip
or cancel it or whatever?
And I was at a point in my career
where I felt very insecure about doing something like that.
That was halfway into my trip.
And my sister called again and said he had been admitted
to the hospital again, and it looked bad.
So I canceled the rest of my trip after all,
and my father had died while I was in transit.
And I was never able to say goodbye to him, and it's just
because I put the stupid trip,
I can't even remember what it was about,
ahead of seeing him one last time.
[ Silence ]
[ Jinpa translating ]
So we show several video clips.
We do lots of assessment.
But with response to this type of task,
what we ask people how much do you feel a sense of care
for the person whose story you just heard?
And what we see is from before
to after compassion training an increase in the sense of caring.
From before to after compassion training we see how willing are
you to help this person?
That goes up.
How much time would you be willing to actually sit and talk
with this person if I gave you the opportunity?
And that also goes up after the compassion training.
So these are the social responses.
Then the question is how might this be supported
by changes in emotion?
And what we found is anxiety [inaudible],
anxiety when you're sitting with other people goes
down after compassion training.
[ Jinpa translating ]
And then also for lots of us we suppress showing our emotions,
which is not adaptive.
It's not helpful.
And suppressing decreases after the compassion training.
[ Jinpa translating ]
And then finally here another way of working with emotion,
which is much more beneficial, which is thinking in a way
to change the meaning of the situation
so that we feel less negative.
That kind of working
with emotion increases after compassion.
[ Jinpa translating ]
And then finally, might the changes in emotion...?
[ Jinpa translating ]
>> Jinpa: His Holiness is wondering whether that ability
to reinterpret a situation
in a more constructive light is it a direct affect
of compassion it self,
or something else is happening there.
>> Dr. Goldin: Don't know yet.
[ Audience chuckles ]
[ Jinpa translating ]
>> Dalai Lama: The compassion brings inner strength,
and that creates the [speaking Tibetan] combined,
or combined can see the others
of the wholistic [speaking Tibetan].
>> Jinpa: Yes.
That could be true, yes.
>> Dr. Goldin: And then finally to the changes
in social behavior and emotion, might they also be related
to changes in attention.
And here one simple task with EEG
where the person puts their eyes on the red triangle
but they pay attention to the blue circle.
Very, very simple.
And we're only looking at the back of the brain here that has
to do with visual processing.
And very simply, what we find is that from before
to after the eight-week compassion training this neural
signal increases, suggesting that people are more able
to sustain their attention after this compassion training.
And this might support the emotion.
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
>> Dr. Goldin: Possibly.
>> Jinpa: So the experiment involves simply asking them
to keep your attention on the circle.
>> Dr. Goldin: Yes.
>> Jinpa: That's all.
>> Dr. Goldin: Which seems simple.
But when you're doing it for about...
twenty minutes...
>> Jinpa: I know.
I know. That was the question.
>> Dr. Goldin: That was it.
Just how well you could actually sustain your attention
without letting it distract.
[ Jinpa translating ]
>> Jinpa: So the way you defined this is it detects
if you have lost your visual attention.
>> Dr. Goldin: We have continuous for 40 minutes
or 30 minutes, continuous signal from this part of the brain
where we can see from moment
to moment am I paying attention to the blue circle?
The signal goes up.
I'm not paying attention, whoo!
It goes down.
[ Silence ]
And in summary, what I've shown you is
that compassion cultivation training,
this two-month program might, we have to do more work,
change social behavior.
More care, more help,
more giving of one's own time to others.
It might change some aspects of emotion.
Less anxiety with other people.
And increases emotion...
working with emotions effectively.
And some evidence that there's increased sustained attention
in each other.
Thank you and.
Thank you to CCARE and to Thupten.
>> Dr. Zajonc: Thank you very much
for a wonderful presentation.
And a hopeful presentation.
Thupten Jinpa is our translator, our interpreter.
And he plays this extremely selfless role.
I think very few people really realize what a,
how he's a fully trained monk achieving a Geshe degree,
which is it's like getting a PhD, in his own tradition.
And he brings all of that capacity to this project.
So Jinpa, wonderful.
[ Applause ]
Dr. Zajonc: lJeanne?
>> Dr. Tsai: Great.
Thank you.
Your Holiness, it's an honor to have this opportunity
to present to you a second time.
The first time was in Dharamsala in the conference
about Destructive Emotions.
And in many ways the research I'm going to tell you
about today is an inspiration from that meeting.
So thank you.
I'm going to talk about two studies today, and the focus
of these studies is the effects of meditation on compassion.
But this is a particular type of compassion
that we're interested in.
The compassion that we can feel toward a convicted murderer.
So in many ways this is a very difficult task of meditation,
because it's hard to feel empathy, acceptance and optimism
for a convicted killer.
From, for most people it's very difficult.
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
So in the first study my student, Joscelyn,
showed meditators
and non-meditators a letter from a prisoner.
This is a letter from a real convicted murderer.
He gave us his permission
to use the letter, and we call him Mike.
And in this letter he says a number of things.
He talks about how he's serving a natural life sentence
with parole for murdering a friend in a blind fit of rage.
And he talks about how he grew up with a lot
of anger in his family.
But that when in prison he's begun
to move beyond that hatred and pain.
And so he admits his guilt, but he is trying to have some hope
for some sort of freedom outside of his imprisoned mind.
So even though he knows he'll continue to be in prison,
he's still looking for something,
some sort of spiritual freedom.
And so he ends the letter by asking the readers to write him.
So in the study that Joscelyn did, she showed meditators
and non-meditators this letter.
Asked them a number of questions about the content of the letter.
Paid them, and then told them that the study was over.
But before they left the lab,
they were given the opportunity to write Mike.
And what we found was that the majority of the mediators,
63% of the mediators in red,
wrote Mike even though they didn't need to.
There was no obligation for them to write Mike.
Whereas, only a minority of the non-meditators wrote Mike.
So they not only.
[ Jinpa translating ]
The meditators were not only more likely to write Mike,
they wrote longer letters.
And they also wrote more compassionate letters.
They wrote letters that included more empathy,
more forgiveness, and more optimism.
And so the results from this study suggest
that meditation does increase this very difficult kind
of compassion.
And if I weren't a scientist I would be really happy
with these findings and I would stop here.
But scientists aren't easily happy until.
[ Audience laughs ]
Until they rule out other explanations.
And so in this case it could be that meditation leads to more
of this kind of compassion.
Or it could be that this kind of compassion is due to the people
who choose to meditate.
It might be that the people who choose
to meditate are more likely to write.
Are more likely to write Mike, so it wasn't really the effect
of meditation but these preexisting characteristics.
And.
[ Jinpa translating ]
So we did a second study that was funded by CCARE
to rule out this explanation.
In this study, we randomly assigned people
to a meditation class.
And we also looked at different types of meditation to see
if it was all meditation types of meditation that leads
to greater compassion.
Or if it was a specific type of meditation.
And this is work that I did with my students,
Birgit Koopmann-Holm, who's in the audience, and Camaron Ochs.
So in this study we randomly assigned Stanford students
to one of four groups.
The two first....
The first two groups were meditation groups.
The first group was a compassion meditation group,
and they underwent the compassion meditation program.
An earlier version of the one
that Erika just presented earlier,
and it was developed by Jinpa.
The second group underwent an eight-week mindfulness
meditation course, like Jon Kabat-Zinn.
The third group underwent an improvisational theater class.
This is a class that teaches students
to be spontaneous and cooperative.
And we included this class because we wanted to be able
to differentiate the effects of taking a class
in which you learn a new skill, you're taught in a group
by a teacher and you have materials and homework,
from the effects of a meditation class specifically.
[ Jinpa translating ]
And then the last fourth of the participants were
in a no class control, so they didn't take the class at all.
So these participants, the participants
in the classes took a two-hour class once a week
for eight weeks.
And at the end of the eight weeks they were presented
with a letter that I showed you earlier.
And they were asked questions about the letter.
And then they were paid, told the study was over,
and then given an opportunity to write.
And.
[ Jinpa translating ]
So our hypotheses were that the people
in the meditation classes would be more likely
to behave compassionately toward the convicted murderer
than those in the control classes.
And that the participants
in the compassion meditation class would be
particularly compassionate.
So contrary to our hypotheses we found no differences
between the groups in the percentage of people who wrote,
in the length of the letters, in empathy or how empathetic
or sympathetic the letters were.
[ Jinpa translating ]
How forgiving or accepting the letters were.
But don't worry, we did find a difference in how optimistic
and encouraging the groups were.
And it was the participants in the compassion meditation group
who were more optimistic
and encouraging toward the convicted murderer
than any other group.
So more than the controls, and more than the participants
in the mindfulness meditation.
[ Jinpa translating ]
Now when we've talked to people
about these results they've said well, maybe the people
in the compassion meditation are just more positive overall.
They just are more positive about everything,
and maybe they're unrealistic.
But we also.
[ Audience laughs ]
[ Jinpa translating ]
But we also asked the participants how much they
thought that Mike, the convicted murderer,
deserved the sentence that he had.
And in this case the participants
in the compassion meditation class felt
that he deserved his sentence even more than the other groups.
So it wasn't that they were unrealistic,
they were very realistic.
And yet they still had hope and optimism for Mike.
So in summary, the previous differences
that we found may have been due
to these preexisting characteristics of people
who are likely to meditate.
But compassion meditation based
on this first preliminary study seems
to uniquely influence how optimistic and encouraging
and hopeful people are toward a convicted murderer.
And so the implications are
that while these preexisting characteristics may account
for some of the results, some of the differences
between mediators and non-meditators,
compassion meditation does have a specific effect.
And remember, this is based on novices.
People who had no experience meditating before they took
the class.
And so compassion meditation for these individuals seems
to give them hope about the future of other people,
even those who appear to be in very hopeless situations.
And what we know is that having hope
for another person can make all the difference in terms
of the course of their life.
So in future work, we'd like to look at longer term meditators.
Again, this is only eight weeks,
so we wonder how the effects will be different
after people have been meditating for longer.
We'd like to look at other forms of compassion.
Remember, this is the most difficult type
of compassion, to feel.
And we'd like to see whether this kind
of compassion meditation program has similar effects
in other cultures and with other religions.
And so I'd like to end by thanking CCARE again as well
as all the people who were involved in these projects.
And thank you for you, for your attention.
[ Applause ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: Thank you very much, Jeanne.
Thank you.
So we've heard three presentations
on the cultivation of compassion.
And not only the description of the actual program itself,
but also two research studies which have illuminated
from quite different sides the particulars of this field.
And I think we're grateful to you as a hard-minded pair
of scientists looking at the details of this.
And trying to tease out those features
which are distinguishing from those
which are delusory in a certain way.
So thank you very much.
And I don't know, first I'd like to see
if His Holiness has a particular question
that might have arisen during the course.
I noticed that you were comparing, for example,
to your own experience.
That is to say as a meditator,
how it is that is worked for you.
What it is that was.
What it is that was generated
as you did the compassion exercises.
Did you find a connection to the data that was being presented
from your own experience to the experiments
that are being done here?
>> Dalai Lama: Obviously to training.
Training means making familiarity.
[ Struggling for words ]
Definitely for the increase or shaping a way of thinking.
That's definitely.
That might I can say through my own experience.
[ Silence ]
As far as I am Buddhist.
So my practice is a Buddhist practice that...
the concept of emptiness.
And also the altruism through sort of not [really grace?],
but on a daily basis is a practice.
So decade by decade, we sort of change.
That's there.
So that means that through training
of mind attitude can change.
Motivation can change.
As a result your basic mental state much calmer, much happier.
That also does not mean that your mental attitude
in something, indifferent?
No. So that much I know.
And then once again.
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
>> Jinpa: His Holiness is, you know, interested at the point
that you made about how compassion training seems
to have an effect on sustained attention.
But His Holiness wants to ask you because, you know,
even in the case of anger, when you are single pointedly angry
about something, there is an element of sustained attention
to the object, the focus of your anger.
>> Dr. Goldin: Just a little bit.
>> Jinpa: But has any work been done, something similar?
This function of sustained attention and anger.
>> Dr. Rosenberg: Yes.
[Inaudible].
>> Dalai Lama: To free emotion.
When usually that particular emotion getting sort
of stronger, then some way focusing on single-pointed.
Okay.
>> Jinpa: On-target.
>> Dalai Lama: On-target.
So then in that case [speaking Tibetan ]
.
>> Jinpa: So if that is the case, then clearly the effect
that you are seeing not a direct effect of compassion.
Something else is happening there.
>> Dr. Goldin: Possibly.
But I think it's a good point
that different emotions will facilitate different kinds
of focused attention.
>> Dalai Lama: Yes.
>> Dr. Goldin: And, but you know,
I haven't seen research that's delineated that for each,
like sadness, happiness.
>> Dalai Lama: Yes.
>> Dr. Goldin: Anger, jealousy.
But, so I don't know.
>> Dr. Tsai: Hasn't there been some research that's
distinguished between high arousal states
and low arousals states?
And the high arousal states like anger,
as well as like enthusiasm, seem to focus attention more.
Whereas lower arousal states like calm seem
to widen attention, which I think is consistent
with what you were describing.
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
>> Jinpa: Does this make sense to you, Your Holiness?
>> Dalai Lama: Oh, yes.
Yes. Very, very.
They're very interesting.
So I think a lot of sort of further, sort of research.
Like a bold field research to theoretical level research
and practical level research.
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
>> Jinpa: Yes.
There needs.
There needs to be kind of research at, from two ends.
One is at the level of theoretical understanding.
There needs to be more fine-tuning of the concepts.
But then at the practical level there's another element
of research by looking more, you know,
through a kind of extra experiment.
>> Dr. Zajonc: I was in fact wondering about this
with regards to your understanding, from perhaps even
out of the Buddhist tradition,
concerning the theory of compassion.
How is it you understand compassion?
How is it you understand the meditation methods themselves
which lead to the development of compassion?
You know, in science we have not only an empirical result
if we do this and something happens.
But that we also try
to understand the theoretical foundations for this.
Is there a way in which this is described
within your philosophical framework?
[ Jinpa translating ]
>> Jinpa?: Oh, I think from the Buddhist viewpoint I think even,
I think the ancient Indian toto [assumed spelling],
Indian taught.
And that means those traditions of Buddhism, non-Buddhism,
there are sort of training of mind.
Mainly is the practice
of semanti [assumed spelling] concentration.
And also avasala [assumed spelling] is common in Buddhism
and non-Buddhism in ancient India.
So firstly, some kind of math about mind or consciousness.
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
>> Jinpa: For example, in the Buddhist psychology,
we have a kind of a basic taxonomy of the mental world.
So you have distinct, at a very fundamental level,
distinction between the primary awareness.
And then the modalities of that awareness,
which are referred to as mental factors.
And within those modalities we speak
of five omnipresent factors
which are always there at any given moment.
Then you have other object determining factors.
So you have this complex taxonomy of the mental world.
And within that framework we understand the phenomena.
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
So let's take the example of compassion.
You know, we speak of compassion,
but we're already talking about a very complex
in a mental phenomena which has many different aspects.
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
For example, like in any given moment, you know,
when you are paying attention,
or sustained attention some, any...
in an object.
In that experience, whether it is emotional
or cognitive experience, there is an element
of single-pointedness of the mind.
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
So that's why I was citing an example of anger.
[ Silence ]
>> Dalai Lama: So naturally,
as far as I notice this scientific sort of research.
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
>> Jinpa: For example in Paul Eckman's work, you know,
there's a lot of development that has been based
on understanding facial expressions, of emotions.
And some of the detailed descriptions
of specific types of familiar emotions.
That, you know, some of those are not found
in the Buddhist taxonomy.
So I think that maybe we need to incorporate those
into the Buddhist psychology.
>> Dalai Lama: So actually we are,
I think yesterday I mentioned actually we are working
on [inaudible] a document on texts.
The science [inaudible].
>> Jinpa: It's a project that's referred
to as Creating a Compendium of Science or Sciences.
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
So the project involved, for example, creating a textbook
that represented a compendium of gathering all the insights
and understanding of say.
For example, in the field of science of mind,
there will be science of mind drawn
from the Buddhist classical texts,
similarly from non-Buddhist [inaudible] classical text.
And including contemporary psychology and neuroscience.
Similarly in say, for example,
in physics the compendium would draw from early Buddhist,
you know, discussions about physics
and also the non-Buddhist Indian traditions.
And then it would be including contemporary scientific
understanding on physics and so on.
>> Dr. Zajonc: That's a great project.
>> Dr. Goldin: Count me in!
>> Dalai Lama: Also a good project where nobody paid.
[ Audience laughs ]
[ Applause ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: I work cheap.
That's all right.
Do any of the panelists, any of the presenters.
[ Jinpa translating ]
[ Dalai Lama laughs ]
Do any of you have a?
>> Dalai Lama: So I am hoping, we are hoping
like in the next six months many [inaudible] roughs of.
>> Jinpa: Draft.
>> Dalai Lama: Drafts maybe.
So we are taking this translation, English translation
into the Chinese and a few more languages.
So it can be, it's purely economics of subject.
No mention [speaking Tibetan ]
.
>> Jinpa: There are no elevated [assumed spelling] components
in it.
Simply descriptive.
Yes.
>> Dalai Lama: Oh.
Because so far that also there are some material
about [speaking Tibetan] in the sciences,
external science in Buddhist text.
But then you have to refer that [speaking Tibetan].
>> Jinpa: Yes.
So at this point in order to get this information,
you have to actually look into the texts themselves
which makes it difficult to access.
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
So the idea is to crate a compendium
so that general readers do not need to actually look
at the classical sources themselves.
They can see, look at the compendium.
>> Dalai Lama: Then philosophy.
[ Applause ]
Then the philosophy requires [speaking Tibetan].
>> Jinpa: So we are also creating a compendium
on philosophy.
>> Dalai Lama: So all of that is mainly meant for Tibetan,
for the younger generation.
And I think Buddhist generations.
And of course in the West
in the scientific research work all findings can be a helpful
benefit on that.
So anyway, I think we need a lot
of research work [speaking Tibetan ]
combine scientific sort of way of research.
And then the.
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
>> Jinpa: So from the perspective
of say a Buddhist contemplative science and psychology.
>> Dalai Lama: One of my critics is usually we study
these things.
But finally are one quotation.
>> Jinpa: Text.
>> Dalai Lama: Text.
So then no further explanation.
So that's [speaking Tibetan].
>> Jinpa: So sometimes in, you know,
the classical tradition they tend to be contented
with what the text says.
And it creates an unnecessary limitation.
>> Addressor: It's a tendency we have in the West also, right?
[ Jinpa translating ]
[ Dalai Lama laughing ]
[ Silence ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: Your Holiness?
Are you open to another question or two?
And would anyone from any of the presenters like to pose?
I have a few up my sleeve still.
Jeanne, do you have something?
>> Dr. Tsai: Most of these meditation protocols are
revolved around eight weeks.
And my question is, I don't know if you can answer it,
but how much time do you think is a reasonable amount of time
for training before you see significant changes?
>> Dalai Lama: Whole life.
>> Dr. Tsai: Whole life.
[ Audience laughs and applauds ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: [Inaudible].
>> Dalai Lama: Now of course obviously is my only,
my own case.
I think I developed a genuine sort of interest
in the practice I think around 15-16 years old.
Before that, just a boy.
No interest.
Then gradually it just start more serious practice and study
as a. So I think there is some real sort of shift,
new shift way of thinking.
Perhaps my age maybe, and early late '20s and early '30s.
Then gradually '50s, '60s was of that deeper, deeper, deeper.
Of course still I cannot say my sort
of special experience is something very high.
No, never.
Still a little above zero.
>> Dr. Rosenberg: Significantly different from [inaudible].
[ Dalai Lama laughing ]
>> Dr. Zajonc: Erika.
>> Dalai Lama: So even that, you know,
it takes a lot of years, doesn't it?
One thing definitely I can say.
>> Dr. Tsai: So, start early?.
>> Dalai Lama: Oh, one thing I can state definitely
with confidence mind can change
through training, through earnest.
That's sure.
[ Applause ]
[ Dalai Lama laughing ]
>> Dr. Rosenberg: I was just going to say something
in response to what Jeanne was saying.
And my experience with this length of training,
and it's a model that's been used a lot
by Jon Kabat-Zinn's program,
is that maybe what's happening there is
that we're getting people launched, you know.
That we're moving them from a place of not even looking inward
or looking at that or opening their hearts
to where they're now over some threshold and they're doing it.
Because my experience as a teacher, and even at Google
where we've had this small group of people
who are working really hard and couldn't seem to attend and.
But they managed.
They, after the end of the class they all got together
and they wanted to figure out how they would continue to meet
and practice in spite of their incredibly difficult
work schedules.
And so I think that.
And I don't know if we're assessing it that way.
It's interesting that they've gone over this threshold.
So maybe they've made the commitment and they've shifted
in certain skills, and now they can move on.
>> Dr. Goldin: [Inaudible] sometimes people say compassion
towards another individual helps to reduce the suffering
of that one person through the altruistic behavior the
compassion results in.
But is there a deeper understanding?
Something where we don't only look
at the individual case this moment, a moment of compassion.
But we begin to work at a more universal level,
at a more profound level to release people from suffering.
Release ourselves as well as others from suffering.
How is it we approach this question
at a still deeper level?
[ Jinpa translating ]
[ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
>> Jinpa: So His Holiness was saying
that his own personal observation is
that it may not be true.
He feels that if you compare, say, anger with compassion,
anger is a type of emotion that seems to need a kind
of a concrete target, an individual object for it
to arise and to be sustained.
There is compassion although it may arise in the context,
naturally in a concrete context.
But compassion seems to be a type of emotion
which actually can be generalized and cultivated,
and without requiring any specific concrete objects
to all beings.
So he was wondering whether it makes any sense
to be angry towards everybody and to the entire being.
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
For example, in the Buddhist meditation context,
there is a particular practice that aims
to cultivate compassion on the basis
of recognizing the deeper causes of suffering.
And particularly conditioning as a form of,
you know, a state of being.
And once you generate that kind of compassion,
then compassion seems to move beyond the limitations
of specific concrete individuals.
Because you are now generating compassion on the basis
of recognizing a situation that is common to all beings.
And on that basis generating compassion.
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
So it seems that the mental processes that we all, you know,
have in such a complex world, that each seems
to have its own way of operating.
>> Dr. Zajonc: Thank you, Your Holiness.
Thank you very much.
Quite a powerful picture of moving
from the individual towards whom one has compassion.
To the conditions under which we all as human beings live,
and towards which we can have compassion more generally.
Thank you very much.
And thank to.
Thanks to our presenters, first of all to the.
>> Dalai Lama: [Inaudible].
Sorry.
>> Dr. Zajonc: Go right ahead.
[ Audience laughs ]
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
>> Jinpa: Yes.
So another.
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
So another difference between the two is that in the case
of anger, you know, against someone
who has done something to you.
Although the act it involves really made you angry,
but the anger seems to be focused not so much
on what was done but rather to the person, you know who is.
>> Dalai Lama: Of course use the reason he
or she has done such and such thing.
Therefore, I feel angry.
So the actual target is the person, not the sort
of [speaking Tibetan]?
>> Jinpa: Action.
>> Dalai Lama: But whereas compassion.
[ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]
>> Jinpa: So although in the case of compassion the focus
of your compassion is that person who's suffering.
But the reason for that is really
because of that suffering.
So compassion seems to take suffering
as a more primary focus, and that person.
>> Dalai Lama: So this difference [inaudible],
but this is not clearly mentioned in our text.
But this comes from [inaudible].
[ Everyone laughing ]
Of course we need to use t his sort of further
in developing a discussion [speaking Tibetan].
>> Jinpa: So this kind of further exploration, you know,
getting deeper into the processes seems
to be really important.
>> Dr. Zajonc: That's great.
And we have another research program I think that's being
proposed, so thank you very much for that.
And we're going to have to transition
from this group to our final group.
Thank you all three of you for the work you've done,
and for the presentations you've given.
[ Applause ]
>> Voiceover: For more please visit us at stanford.edu.