KELSEY ALPAIO: What does it take to be
successful in social justice law?
What I do know is that they're fighters.
They work hard.
And they're really, really good at reading stacks of paper.
And lawyers, they've been in the headlines more than ever
these days.
Like, of course, you can go to protests.
You can sign petitions.
But lawyers, they're the ones fighting the real fight.
What's it like to be a lawyer who's fighting for real change?
[MUSIC PLAYING]
You refer to yourself as a social justice warrior.
What does that mean to you?
JESSICA LEWIS: It means I need something
to put on my cover letter.
No, I'm kidding.
KELSEY ALPAIO: That's Jessica Lewis.
She's a Staff Attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union
of Massachusetts.
She's being modest there about being a social justice warrior.
But she is one.
She was a fellow at the Southern Poverty Law Center.
She went to Harvard Law School.
She was in the Peace Corps.
And she interned at the White House.
OK.
That's just some of her resume.
And being a social justice warrior,
it's a lot more than a line in a cover letter.
JESSICA LEWIS: So I think in this job,
we spent a lot of time really working
to fight other people's battles, and really making
that our priority.
I think the best example of that,
I did a clinic with a legal services organization.
And I did work with survivors of domestic abuse.
And we received a call from one of our clients.
She was saying that she wasn't able to send
her children to school, because she was sick,
and that her ex-husband wasn't paying child support.
So she didn't have any money to send them to school on her own.
And so I stepped in and called the ex-husband just remind him
of the child support payments.
And then he told me, this is none of your business.
And then I was able to reply, this is really my job.
This is all that I do.
So yes, this is my business.
And I'm stepping in here.
KELSEY ALPAIO: I think a lot of young people
they have this goal of doing something like for the greater
good, or like doing something that gives them purpose,
or that they feel passionate about.
Like, do you have some kind of like pros and cons
to pursuing your passion, or pursuing
something that gives you that feeling of purpose,
versus maybe going somewhere where you'll make more money,
or somewhere where it's like more cut and dry,
and like less emotional, or something.
Do you have any thoughts on that?
JESSICA LEWIS: Yeah, so I think for each person,
obviously, that's a very personal choice.
And sometimes, it does just come down to a matter of resources.
I know a lot of people who choose to go into big law
in order to pay off their loans, or they
have family obligations, or things like that.
And they may spend three to five years
in big law, and then transition to being an public interest
lawyer.
That's one common route.
KELSEY ALPAIO: Jessica says big law a few times
in this interview.
It's basically those large law firms in New York, Chicago.
Think 500 lawyers, big skyscrapers, cubicles,
intellectual property, other buzzwords.
JESSICA LEWIS: I just dove right into public interest.
I did a summer with a big law firm, and I loved it.
There were a lot of perks.
Like, they took us out to like five star restaurants
all the time.
Or we went to the Hamptons, and like hung out.
It was fabulous.
But I could not wake up every day
knowing that my goal was just to make other people money.
It just wasn't my thing.
And I think I was happiest there when
I did a rotation through the pro Bono side of things.
And that, I just loved being able to help other people,
and knowing that I was waking up every day with a purpose, which
was just to make other people's lives better basically.
So I think for me, it became clear and obvious
that my passion was going to be the thing that won out.
KELSEY ALPAIO: Is that something that you
had to kind of learn on your own through your own journey?
Or did you go into public interest law kind
of already having that feeling?
JESSICA LEWIS: Sorry, I just got a text
that they're entering the courtroom for the verdict.
Oh, gosh.
KELSEY ALPAIO: During this interview,
the Derek Chauvin trial was wrapping up
and the verdict was being announced.
So we were both a little bit distracted.
JESSICA LEWIS: I suffered constant existential crisis
when I was a teenager.
So I became kind of a nihilist.
I didn't actually go into all of this thinking
that I'm going to be the thing that changes the world.
And I did have a very discrete goal
about what constitutional change that I wanted to impact,
or cause.
But it was like a very small thing,
and I thought it would take like 20 years.
So I think I was kind of realistic about that.
KELSEY ALPAIO: What were those constitutional changes
that you were interested in?
Like, what were your goals?
JESSICA LEWIS: So I wanted to make an impact in education
law, and basically, the way that we
teach history in middle school, high school, et cetera.
Because right now, it's very eurocentric.
And we only really ever learn about other cultures
through the lens of how white Americans, et cetera,
hurt them.
So Black people are only mentioned
for slavery, or being hosed down.
But not I guess our impact on culture,
or the shaping of America, et cetera.
We're something that things happen to.
We're not people who contributed.
And then when our history is taught, it's very fragmented.
So you don't actually see that continuous narrative
of how we got from one place to where we are today.
And for a lot of people, that causes some then say, what are
they still complaining about?
Slavery happened a long time ago.
Because it's just taught very poorly.
Or discrimination against Asian-Americans,
or when Hispanics actually came into this country, et cetera.
We just don't get a very accurate picture of what
America is in this country.
And that's probably, or largely, because
of how we're taught history.
We're just taught America is white, basically.
I mean, I always wanted to change that, make
a constitutional argument that that is racial discrimination,
or harm to a person's identity.
And the school, or the government
can actually be the thing that affects that identity crisis
that teenagers go through because of this, because
of the way that they're being taught about themselves
in class, et cetera.
And so that's what I've always wanted to accomplish.
I'm not working on that right now.
One day I will.
It's in my ten year plan now.
Lofty goals.
KELSEY ALPAIO: So what are some of the obstacles and challenges
of this industry?
Like, when you talk to your friends who are lawyers,
like, what are the things that you all kind of
wish that you could change about this industry?
JESSICA LEWIS: So an obstacle for public interest law
is really hard to get a position because of the funding
is not always there.
Or during the pandemic.
And this is obviously not just representative of the pandemic.
But there was a lot of downsizing in organizations
because money dried up.
Because people are obviously are not
going to be giving that much during the recession.
And it's kind of a cyclical thing.
So my friend had just landed a new position.
And then her position kind of went away, because they just
didn't have the funds anymore.
Or really getting your foot in.
But you also have to go through the fellowship process too,
because it's really hard to get your foot
in at an organization.
It's also why internships are important, et cetera,
so that you meet the right people.
You have a rapport among your colleagues.
Because especially if you're like Boston,
it's a small place.
Civil rights community is very small.
So people do know you by your reputation.
Um, like easy to destroy.
So it's also very important to pay attention to it.
So I think that's one big obstacle.
And then I think something that we would like to change
is the legal system is very antiquated in terms
of the role of woman.
And I remember I had one internship where
they encouraged women to wear skirts.
And by encourage, I pretty much mean it was a requirement.
And then we were told if we want to express our individuality,
we can wear like a nice brooch.
Or I had a colleague who a judge kept pointing out
that she's not smiling.
Which you know, F you buddy.
But you can't say that.
Because obviously, you're advocating for someone else.
So you have to step back and not put yourself--
or you can't really advocate for yourself
when those things are being lobbed at you,
because it's not about you.
Or you can't necessarily not choose to wear a skirt,
because some jurors have expressed bias
against women wearing pants.
Or there was like one instance where
a judge kind of stopped proceedings,
and had the attorney go change.
And it's all very [EXPLETIVE] up.
I don't know if I can curse in here.
It's all very messed up.
So I think that's one thing that would
be great to see changed in legal field,
in terms of how women are treated or understood.
And we don't have to conform to kind of biased viewpoints.
Like, I sometimes wear pink when I'm in court hearings,
because I was once told that I'm angry.
So I thought if I look very feminine,
no one's going to think I'm angry.
KELSEY ALPAIO: All right.
Let's talk about money.
JESSICA LEWIS: It varies by field.
So as a fellow, my starting salary
was 60,000, which was I think very generous.
As an attorney, and I checked.
I can actually say this.
So the ACLU in Massachusetts recently unionized.
So our floor for incoming staff attorneys is 70,000.
But on the other side of this is big law.
The starting salary for first year attorneys is $190,000.
I would never make that in my current career path.
But my friend, also, his starting salary was $225,000.
So literally twice the amount of money
I can ever expect to make in my current career path.
And be for most public interests or non-profits,
our salaries are actually disclosed,
not like bottom level attorneys or staff people,
but the legal director, or the executive director,
they're required to disclose their income
on tax forms, et cetera, so you can actually
see what they make.
And like the highest amount that you can
expect to make in this field.
So that's pretty much the norm.
KELSEY ALPAIO: That is such a bigger disparity
than I ever thought.
That's wild.
JESSICA LEWIS: My friends were like texting each other.
And we're like on a group chat about their bonuses.
If it's a lot, or like, oh, like, I just
got like a pay bump because I'm now like a second year.
And I'm just like, I don't want to be included in this.
KELSEY ALPAIO: Talking to Jessica was so cool.
She was so candid and honest, and just real
with me about what it's like to be a lawyer,
and what it's like to work in community law.
And I really, really like that.
Yes, this career is challenging.
And you're probably not going to make as much money
as you would in a different career path.
But that doesn't mean the work you're doing isn't important.
Thanks for watching.
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