[Music]
it's been the great
experiment how to assess children who
haven't been in school
who to control the disease might be
forced out of school
at any point a question which boils down
to whether or not
they should sit their exams next summer
not for the first time in this pandemic
different things
are happening in different parts of the
uk wales has cancelled all their exams
replaced with in-class room assessments
while scotland has done the same with
their equivalent of gcses
northern ireland and england have both
deferred exams by several weeks
but not cancelled any but the argument
goes that that's not fair given all the
time missed both in spring and less
commonly appreciated
now english secondary school attendance
for last week stands at 87 percent
better than some feared but that's still
down on where it should be and 3 000
schools have 30
or more people self-isolating many of
those schools likely concentrated
in the north of england but plenty want
exams to go ahead
these students at st dominic's sixth
horn college in harrow saw what happened
to the year above this summer
saw how arbitrary the system which
replaced exams was
they want to keep the control exams give
them
the only thing every year that we know
is a guarantee that we will have our
exams
and we'll get reliable good results from
them
how many of you want to do the exams i'd
say all of us
to an extent we are prepared and it
might not be the same for the
nationally but i think everyone is
different and as a college we can say
that
i think we are we are ready and i think
taking the exams would reflect
our potential more than getting
predicted grades
so i think that that's why majority of
the students here would prefer to take
the exams
this is a school which has kept its
attendance up kept covid out but the
head here
is aware that not all have been so lucky
now is the time
particularly with the announcement in
wales today for a national conversation
to make sure that there is parity across
the united kingdom i think that's really
important we have a national examination
system
and i think that national conversation
between the devolved powers needs to
happen now
indeed teachers spoken to by newsnite
today reflect the division across the
country
one said at one point 170 out of 240
students were isolating
and some are currently isolating for the
third time teacher assessment is the
only fair and moral option
another said there is no way for the
exams to run successfully and fairly
pupils are being forced off for large
periods of time
additionally many could actually miss
the exam day itself either through
having to isolate or being unwell
and another i have 50 year 11s off at
the moment isolating
the whole year group has been off twice
already so four weeks have lost teacher
time just this year
the exam boards have essentially made no
changes to the content so no idea how
exams running as normal can be fair
something which could bring teachers
together a changes to how much is
actually
examined the other possibility
is that we say we'll only have some
exams so a typical a level might have
three papers well we don't need to
necessarily to do all three papers
so we could have a blend of some exams
some teacher assessment we could also
say that we won't have exams in all
subjects just in some of them
so there are various possibilities and
it's really important that we look at
all of them
and we make sure that we understand the
implications of each
not just on the whole cohort but on
particularly
those students who are likely to be
disadvantaged this is a
divisive subject which splits the
education profession
often on the basis of school type of
school type of cohort where
that cohort and school is but there is
one
source of agreement that whatever is to
be done needs to be done
quickly that the nightmare scenario is
getting to the spring
beyond the spring and for the department
for education to change the system
at the last minute in other words what
the system needs
most of all is what has been in shortest
supply
consistency this is a year group perhaps
even more unusual than the last they end
every school day aware
that all they've learned might no longer
be needed all they're working for
might change when the next school day
begins anew in this strange age of ours
it is our youngest
wading through uncertainty at its worst
louis thank you we invited the
government on the programme but they
declined
joining me now are conservative mp david
simmons a member of the education select
committee
and rebecca poole head teacher of
hampton high school
in middlesex welcome to you both rebecca
if i may start with you
can you see why the welsh government
have scrapped exams
so i think that um
i i can't i can see why they've made a
decision they've obviously consulted
uh widely and had a look at the
what is going on and the implications of
that
and action needed to be taken
really rapidly i think so that students
and teachers know what is being expected
of them
we do need to ensure that we have a very
fair and
level playing field we've not just got
the gaps through lockdown
that we are busy filling but also
that's compounded somewhat by the
content that we're now teaching and
also the issues that have been raised
through
inequality and access so i can
absolutely understand why decisions are
now being taken and i think it's very
helpful
because it's brought this whole issue
back into the spotlight
and um now what we're looking at
are obviously students who are also
in self-isolation we have staff who are
in self-isolation
and i think we're in danger of seeing
really vulnerable students students who
are vulnerable during the first lockdown
who might become even more um vulnerable
through
this lockdown as well so let me ask you
then do you think it's fair for exams to
take place next summer in the current
form
in england so i
i think um the situation at the moment
is that some amendments have been made
to the way that children are going to be
assessed but
broadly speaking the content has stayed
the same
and i think given that we're talking
about
quite a long period where children have
been out of education
and whilst yes they've been learning
online
accessing something on a mobile phone is
not quite the same as accessing it for
example on a tablet
so there is there's an issue there
around equality of access
and so i think some real consideration
needs to be given about how these
children can really demonstrate
what they can do and we mustn't forget
that these children have got
years and years of learning behind them
uh but also to acknowledge that we're
operating and very very
challenging times let's bring in david
at this point because
can you hear anything in this situation
especially what we're also hearing in
in our report that that would make you
think exams
should be cancelled in 2021 in england
examinations are a great leveler and i
think what we heard from
young people is reflected in the
evidence we know that particularly for
youngsters who are vulnerable who come
from
disadvantaged backgrounds tend to get
better results in external examinations
than they've got historically
in central assessed grades so it's
important in regular time so it's really
important
and it would have been true this year as
well if we looked at the outcomes for
the algorithm that was used to give
predicted grades versus what schools had
predicted so
it is important to try and make sure
that those exams go ahead
as we've just heard the government has
made efforts and we've heard a lot of
evidence at the education select
committee for ministers about this
by changing the time of exams by
shifting the order of exams to give the
maximum possible chance for that to go
ahead
but of course we have to recognize
there's a lot of uncertainty with kovid
i think it's right we press ahead with
trying to make sure that children have
that chance
but there needs to be a good backup plan
in place and the autumn series of exams
for gcses that were
taking place that for students who
perhaps were going to reset after what
would have happened in the summer
those have been run by schools very
successfully this autumn so it has been
proven that schools can do those exams
even under the lockdown conditions the
welsh education
minister said that they can't provide an
even playing field
so how can england well wales is also
going for a form of externally moderated
exams so
there has been some debate and we've
seen it in the media today about whether
what's been announced is the
cancellation of exams or just exams in a
different form
but the key thing to remember is that in
england we see a lot more transition
particularly for students at the age of
16
71 of children in england change
educational institution at 16 and that's
not the case
in wales and scotland so those exams are
really important both to the youngsters
themselves
to meet their aspirations and to
validate the efforts they've put in so
far
and also to the institutions that
they're moving on to so they know that
they're ready to start those
there's a recognition by you here that
there is an issue around
missed work missed insights
what we've just been hearing there it's
a three week delay
but when you look at what the national
foundation for educational research puts
out in terms of the gap
right now in at the end of the summer
students were around three months behind
expectations and that widened
when they were looking at those from the
poorest schools
how is three weeks enough well certainly
had teachers in my patch and head
teachers nationally have been telling us
that what they want to see is that three
week delay they think that will allow
them with the efforts that they've got
in place
with the extra resources that have been
put in to enable catch up
to give those young people a really fair
chance when those exams happen
but we need to have those contingency
plans as well and we need to make sure
that there's that balance in the system
young people are saying they want the
chance to really demonstrate what they
can do and the best way to do that is to
do those proper
exams that they wouldn't normally if
they can't plan hopefully rebecca is in
your patch you're her
mp and rebecca is three weeks not to
make this awkward i've never
met before but it's three weeks actually
enough
to carry out the same exams essentially
um three weeks would not be enough to
keep to carry out the same exams
and actually i i belong to a group of
a large group of head teachers up and
down the country and we really want to
be part of the dialogue part of the
solution
and what might work
and it would need to be discussed would
be something along the lines of
you take it down to one exam in all of
the subjects you have
some degree of optionality because the
other thing we have to bear in mind
is that before lockdown students even if
they were studying the same syllabus
may well have studied different topics
in different orders
and so so reducing the number of exams
but
wouldn't that actually be limiting
children's education and not giving them
the greatest chance and the greatest
breadth
i think if if we had something factored
in
uh that went along the lines of some
moderated
uh with very clear criteria
assessment around teacher assessment or
teacher judgment
that played into that and were a part of
that as well
i think something like that would be
quite
helpful there are lots and lots and just
if i may how quickly would you need to
know that by
well we would need to know pretty
quickly because
we've got to set the systems up we have
to prepare the students properly we and
okay let's put this to david if i may
just in terms of
is there going to be a change in england
because we've heard from number 10 no
change today
um but we've seen things have had to
move what do you read that as
the situation well it's not my
constituency but certainly had teachers
in my constituency have told me
that they think the approach of the
three week delay has been a helpful one
but what we've heard and we heard it
this morning at the education select
committee from the head of ofsted
that she's very very concerned about the
impact on young people of exams being
cancelled next year
she wants to see the government make all
possible efforts to give young people
that chance
i agree with that that's certainly what
i hear from young people but i think it
is something that we need to keep under
view because we need to recognize
with all the uncertainties that exist
around kobe's under review though
you know there are there's a deadline
with you you can excuse me in january
well offcall have already been given
that instructions
some time ago to look at what that plan
b would look to look like but of course
we need to see
how the covert situation develops and
the concern of course we all have
is that there are risks to the
alternative approaches as well that some
groups are particularly disadvantaged by
center assessed grades
by teacher assessment and we need to
recognize that this is not a situation
where this has benefits for everybody
there'll be a negative impact on some
students of the approach that's been
taken in wales
so we need to look at what is the thing
that gives our young people
the fairest possible chance the fast is
the message as well
thank you very much to both of you for
your time