and so when we have conversations with
people at veganism I guess the
imperative isn't to offload lots of
information on to them because
information can be heavy and sometimes
isn't always productive III view these
conversations is more been a way or a
manner in which we can spark just a
Fault in someone's head to make them
question themselves and that's what's
really wonderful about the Socratic
method is because the onus is our new
asking questions always asking questions
it allows the person who's speaking tea
to understand themselves better and
understand how they feel better I
fundamentally believe that veganism
isn't isn't it's not it's not something
you have to give someone right with the
morals and philosophy freakin ism isn't
it's something that someone has to be
given there's so many just have to
rediscover in themselves now we all hate
animal cruelty I've never met anyone
that Joy's animal cruelty even people
that can make acts of cruelty to animals
I've never met anyone that actually
relishes in that I mean of course people
do exist like that unfortunately but the
vast majority of people are staunchly
against animal cruelty and also
staunchly against the destruction of our
environment coincidentally or a surprise
surprise and so that that's the
foundation is there being against the
suffering of non-human animals and of
course humans as well and so if that's
the the values that we preach and we
live by always should live by then
actually vegan ISM is it something new
to sew on it's about rediscovering what
they already know within themselves and
that's where asking questions is so
fundamental and so powerful because it
allows someone to understand themselves
better the things we were raised in
cultures and their families were values
and beliefs and moral systems are
dictated to us and we don't really
actually scrutinize or think through how
we feel we just merely adopt what we've
always done and what we're told is
normal within the context of the
cultures that were raised in which is
really dangerous when you think about it
because cultural practices and
traditional practices are sometimes
incredibly oppressive and horrendously
archaic and transgressive you know a lot
of this the progress we've made as a
society is because we challenged
preconceived norms and values and so
veganism is exactly that it's
challenging preconceived norms but we've
never scrutinized that within ourselves
which is why most of us live in this
state of hypocrisy or cognitive
that's right we're just to find
something that goes against how we feel
and what we preach cognitive dissonance
really powerful psychological concept
but the Socratic method is a great way
of getting through that because people
can understand themselves better like I
see when we have these conversations
it's almost like we're being that voice
in someone's head you know that that
kind of nagging voice we get that's
always trying like trip us up and we're
when we scrutinizing and it's like ask
those difficult questions and sometimes
we just want to ignore it well I see us
as been the facilitator of that annoying
little voice that you sometimes get in
your head that won't shut up asking you
difficult questions making you feel
uncomfortable I think we probably all
had that when we were on our way to
veganism that bit where we we kind of
knew we should do it right but kind of
didn't want to but we just couldn't stop
thinking about it and no matter what we
said to ourselves that voice was still
there telling us we should do it I had
that where I was just like I really
don't want to do it but this voice was
like well you know you've got to you
know and I was like come on and it was
like no no no no I'm gonna stay here
until you change so I think that's what
we are that voice and so what people ask
is stuff they never have to justify it
and so what I mean but as people will
say well you know I don't want to be
vegan okay
well why why and then have to say well
you know other animals eat other animals
I think well why does that make a
difference and I think this this this
this the simple word why is so wonderful
because it really encourages people to
actually think about the arguments that
they're making people just use a hug
units all the time whether ever having
to actually rationalize it or explain
the argument that they're using and so
it was almost like that that kind of
petulant child
you know like Oh who's always asking a
parent why why why and the parent is
like for goodness sake I don't know okay
just because and that's that thing we
are like a petulant child is wants to
keep why but why but why does this make
a difference you know why does the fact
that you know we've always done this
make and make a difference that why
encourages people to think deeper and
deeper and deeper because the deeper
they go the more illogical they actually
become and so this asking questions is a
wonderful form of just encouraging
people to understand themselves and then
get to know their moral
code I guess deeper than it actually is
five all right deeper than that actually
is and so let me apply that like a
practical sense what does that look like
because what I think about before we
were vegan I think like most probably
were encouraged by documentaries maybe
maybe videos online any studies but I
think it wasn't like an overload of
information that got us there I think
office often it's that the subtleties in
what we hear or what we see that
encourages the change it's just the most
obvious stuff not that the complexities
of science that encourages us is
sometimes the most basic stuff and so
people will often justify things by
saying we know humane slaughter is a
great example right well you know I
think it's okay to kill animal if it's
done in a humane way and so we could say
well you know that's not true because
now an animal doesn't have to die and I
think it's cruel then to do that but
maybe a more effective thing to say
would be like well what does humane mean
to you because again we used we use
these terms in these words and we use
them so broadly and we have to get
people to define what they mean by these
words so ask well what does the word
humane mean to you and then they'll
probably saying like oh you know killing
the animal would without pain or
something you say well what about like
an objective form like an objective
definition you know what would the
synonyms be what would you know if we
opened a force or as' and we looked for
the words humane what other words would
be there alongside it I don't care what
compassion benevolent serve course in
there
nigo okay well then you know can we kill
an animal in a compassion or benevolent
way if they don't have to die and if
they don't want to die I don't think
anyone could could say that we could do
that compassionately and you go well if
it can't be compassionate can it be
humane and it and it's this kind of a
cycle of questioning that hopefully you
get someone to be like well well no but
then they've realized that within
themselves and what I really like about
this is people can't get angry at you
then right because you're merely asking
them and there are answering how they
feel well they can't get angry at you
because they've expressed how they feel
and I think a lot of the time that anger
and frustration people feel of vegans is
when they feel like they're being judged
firstly and also when they're when they
feel like they're being told what to do
and they're being told that they're bad
people are told that they're living in
it immoral way but that the beauty of
asking some questions is we never
actually tell them how we feel now of
course in some conversations
we're going to express ourselves a
little bit and it's okay to to say
something it's a little bit more factual
base of a fact based but as asking as
many questions as possible just it leads
people to get into the conclusion in a
way that they don't feel judged to do so
because it's just something they've
learned within themselves and another
example you could say is no are you
against animal cruelty you know
everyone's going to say of course I'm
against animal cruelty okay well to find
out what cruelty means you know I think
most people will say well you know it's
inflicting harm unnecessarily you know
that word unnecessarily is important and
you go well is it necessary for us to
kill animals in slaughterhouses and eat
them I think we can all agree that it is
and most people will say no somebody
might say you have protein or iron and
then you say what can you get protein
from plants and nearly everyone is going
to say yes and you go well if it's not a
necessity then then surely to take the
life of an animal for food is
unnecessary as you've stipulated which
therefore in your vision of the word
cruelty means that it is an act of
Cruelty which means that you're against
animal cruelty but by your own admission
you perpetuate systems that you define
as being cruel to animals and that's a
other some people that have cost right
because that's my definition of cruelty
and you've just applied that back to me
I think that's really I like that I
really like but it's not just about
language of course because the Socratic
language is Socratic dialogues by asking
questions but it's also about body
language and I think confidence is
really important when we talk to people
not being overly confident and cocky but
having a form of confidence where we
feel like we we grasp what we're talking
about that's what I mean by that is how
we perceive ourselves how we open
ourselves up and so with we're really
closed off and we're like you know got a
hands clenched you know there's a very
aggressive sign body language right and
it creates like a lot of friction so we
need to make sure that we're kind of
open you know and if we open our arms of
it suggests vulnerability and Trust and
I think that's really important as well
because the person was speaking to has
to have an element of trust with us
language is important I used to use lots
of accusatory language I also have a
problem where when I start to get angry
my finger comes out I start pointing
alright this is like my one thing like
you can see it in some videos I start to
get rattled right and then this fingers
that I've got to like just curl it back
in again right so maybe we all have
these little behaviors that we do that
suggests we're a bit on edge where's the
finger so be careful with things like
that but also be careful of language I
used to use a lot of like use your doing
this it's your fault you you know you're
killing animals you you you but actually
if we use words like we an hour rather
than you in your it creates a sense of
you know not isolation I'm not blaming
but a sense of collective responsibility
now of course we're holding the
individual responsible but there's also
a collective liability and so I wasn't
well Regan I'm sure most of us weren't
if you were that's wonderful
but most us probably weren't and so at
some point we were involved in those
systems of violence and we were you know
perpetuating what was happening to the
animals and using we and our is kind of
like a humbling way of accepting that
responsibility but also shown that there
isn't this tension you know this isn't
this friction it's not we're not
accusing you even though it is them
doing it it's not just their fault
there's a whole mechanism in place
that's led up to this point so you know
when we buy a little products we're
responsible for what happens to animals
in slaughterhouses you know we have a
responsibility to look at our actions it
is our fault what's happening to the
planet and the animals you know not you
and not your I think that that
definitely goes a long way and I think
with that body language aspect
keeping somewhat calm is definitely
fundamentals that know if someone's been
you know slightly cheeky with you or
slightly passive-aggressive it's okay to
meet them a little bit right
you don't have to get you know stay like
meek and ultimately calm you can even
press yourself a little bit but I think
the general rule of thumb is to seem
just very relaxed and become as much as
we possibly can and sometimes we're
gonna get angry sometimes we're going to
get overly emotional sometimes we might
not feel confident and comfortable and
we might leave a conversation feeling
frustrated but that's okay right they
were not always going to be writing
we're not always going to get perfect we
can just keep learning and keep striving
and keep going and so Socratic method
ask questions lots and lots of questions
help people understand how they actually
feel why they feel this way make people
rationalize and analyze their actions
like they've never done before because
they
and give people the benefit of the doubt
because people aren't bad because they
do bad things you know so what isn't
holy a bad person because they buy a lot
more products so they hunter
good and bad is so hard to define and
good people do bad things and bad people
do good things and so we can't
categorize someone as being wholly bad
because they do bad things right I think
that's really important remember that we
used to be this person I used to use the
free-range argument all the time I used
to laugh and say bacon I used to be that
person right no I'm not because I
changed and I learned so remember the
people they're not bad people we used to
be like them and also remember that
there's a whole system that is created
these mindsets in people you know when
someone walks past footage of pigs be
killed me and they shot bacon right it's
a terrible thing that they've done but
there's a whole there's a whole system
behind them that's pushed them to that
point so that could be social pressure
you know the expectation of eating meat
to be masculine or showing little
empathy to be masculine there's social
stigma that they feel that they have
though with their friends they want to
perpetuate that and make themselves seem
manly maybe they're actually upset by
what they see and they don't want to
admit that because that would seem weak
in their eyes and so they overcompensate
by trying to make it funny okay there's
that there's also that cultural aspect
this is where they're being raised
there's also that family aspect of how
they're raised maybe their families used
to laugh at people so I think we have to
see past the excuses that people use and
try to understand and it's like when if
you do like debating master classes I
workshops in university or whatever
often one of the things they'll get you
to do is is debate the opposite of how
you feel they debate the opposite to
what you believe and that's a very
uncomfortable thing because we don't
want to debate in favor of killing
animals or exploiting animals but that's
actually a really powerful thing to do
because by doing that we learn their
arguments better
we can also empathize with their
arguments better not to agree with them
but to understand them and if you're
understanding them we can respond better
and we can also stay more calm because
we get the process and after these
processes are on the surface very
logical you know that whole like what
would we do of all the animals if we
went vegan that's actually really really
logical you think about like you know if
you've never explored the idea bull what
would we do the animals logical on the
surface but illogical when you think
about the practicalities of it and I
think that's what a lot of these excuses
are
seem logical on the surface to the
people saying them but they just need to
be given that backstory that you know
the reasoning why is not logical and is
nonsensical and they're okay I've talked
for a while I said lots of different
things the time has gone I ignored it
parallel it's just like one minute
I think people often when they feel
guilty is when they say the most hurtful
things because they want to they want to
distance themselves from the guilt as
much as possible and so I think that's
what happens a lot of people as they say
that and the reason they're saying that
is because they know it's hurtful and
they know that it is probably the most
upsetting things they can say is well I
just you know I love how it tastes
but I think actually that one is an
interesting one because a response would
be well do you think I mean the taste or
the enjoying us and then justifies what
happens right you know I like how meat
tastes too much together but what do you
think that matter of it is it good
enough reason to justify what happens to
animals you know most people will be
like no some people say yes right and if
they say yes you just say well what
you're actually saying therefore is that
sensory pleasure justifies what we do to
others right that's the moral
justification you're making sensory
pleasure taste is a sense I find it
enjoyable the sensory pleasure and that
really I think psychologically that
belittles the argument a lot right it's
sensory because it makes it seem so
trivial which it is but also you say
well if you're using sensory pleasure
isn't is an argument didn't have to
apply that to other scenarios like has
to be applied somewhat you know you you
big purchase leads you know to other
environments you know do you say well
dis sensory pleasure and more you
justify notion most people are going to
say no if they say no you go what
they're there for taste isn't a good at
justification if they say yes you go
well okay can you name some other
examples where an impressive feels
sensory pleasure at the expense of a
victim we can all think of them get them
to say what they are and then you say
what is that moral is that justified
because of sensory pleasure no of course
not okay so then then the jury pledged
in their justification but just say just
does the enjoying of something justify
the consequences of it yeah I think
unless you're that you even got a
sociopathic friends or you've got
disingenuous friends right sociopathic
is a problem no but disingenuous isn't a
problem you know people will be people
will lie and be disingenuous all the
time to justify something and so even if
they say yes it does that their line you
know they are and they just need to get
them to but that again sometimes people
are going to say something we don't want
to hear sometimes people gonna get angry
so most people are gonna try and
belittle us blah blah but they're
thinking about it and that's the
important thing
you know and even if it is someone that
has it says that's thing to you oh I
enjoy taste it too much it's come from a
place where they're having to think
about it so it's a good thing you know
because you've raised the point or
you've had a vegan option
you've said oh look there's this new
vegan product now behind whatever and
they've said that but they've said that
for a reason that's because they've had
a fault and they'd probably try to
suppress that force was all good it's
all good
mostly mostly it doesn't feel like it
but it can be but just ask them right no
does the enjoy with something just the
fact that what happens and then if it
does sensory pleasures the justification
they're making which you can't you can't
end up actually agreeing with if you
take it further and further yeah good
question
[Music]
you
[Music]