A guy brought in some shell casings that he says
were at the scene of John Dillinger's last crime.
There's no way to tell if they're legit
just by looking at them, so I called in Jonathan
to help me out with this.
This is the shell casings I was telling you about.
Two 45s, a 38, and some random rifle
casing from Dillinger's last heist
that went really, really bad.
It did go bad--
for some.
[laughter]
I'm the executive director at The Mob Museum,
which is the National Museum of Organized
Crime and Law Enforcement.
We specialize in artifacts, history,
and stories of organized crime in the United States.
So this is a great story.
So the Merchants National Bank robbery
in South Bend, Dillinger's last robbery before he was killed.
Dillinger, at the time--
public enemy number one.
I mean, this guy was as big as they come, in terms of outlaws.
And real-- you know, this is real-life Hollywood stuff.
I mean, this was a guy who was in jail,
busted out of jail twice.
And they knocked off banks.
Between 1933 and 1934, dozen-plus banks were robbed.
Robbed police stations to take guns and ammunition.
I mean, this is-- - Amazing.
I guess that's where you would go.
[laughter]
JONATHAN: Go where they keep the guns.
But this was an amazing time period--
1933, 1934.
I mean, this was the Depression.
People are somewhat sympathetic to the bank robbers.
I mean, banks are not popular at that point in time.
And the bank robbers had a real advantage,
too, in terms of firepower, the speed of their cars.
You know, they would go into these small towns,
and they'd do a job.
And the police there would be no match for them.
And in fact, it was this type of activity
that really led to the FBI gaining all the powers
that they did, because it was the only way to pursue
these guys across state lines.
John Dillinger was an outlaw.
His claim to fame, so to speak, was as public enemy number one.
By some accounts, John Dillinger was a little bit
of a Robin Hood type of figure.
So, Rick, what are your concerns about these casings?
Well, my concerns are is we have four shell cases
in a baggie and a newspaper article
that's 57 years after the fact.
So are these the shells or not?
Well, so the two 45s--
those could make sense.
I mean, that's-- they could be either for a revolver
or a Thompson submachine gun.
They'd use weapons where they could penetrate vests.
I mean, that was one of the things that
was very important to them.
This one looks like it could be a 35-caliber rifle cartridge,
which--
MAN: It is.
--one of the gang members, Homer Van Meter,
was reported to have used that type of rifle--
RICK: OK.
--and, from what we know about that
bank robbery, might have been stationed
outside with that rifle.
So that could also make sense.
RICK: OK, so is it real?
What we could do is, we could take a look at the casings
and the markings on the casings and see
if we can gather any information that might give an indication
of what time period they're from,
be able to get back to you with some more
information about them.
OK.
Well, is that all right with you?
MAN: Sure.
OK, I got to get to work.
JONATHAN: Great.
And give me a call, and I'll call him.
And we'll get everything figured out.
- Sounds good. - Great.
RICK: Thanks a lot, man.
Thanks.
Sometimes when you're dealing with something
as rare and unique as this, you just need more time.
But if they are from John Dillinger's last robbery,
I want them.
So now I'm going to sit here with my fingers
crossed while Jonathan tries to figure this out.
Here's what we know.
Good news.
So let's start with the 35-caliber.
RICK: OK.
JONATHAN: It's an old case.
It certainly has the appearance of being an old case.
But you can see, on the underside,
if you were to turn it over, it says REM-UMC.
That reflects, back in 1912, Remington and Union Metallic
Cartridge Company merged.
And you had that head stamp from 1912 up until 1960.
The other casings do not have quite the same
aged appearance to them, when you take a look at it.
They are old.
There's no question about that.
Based on the stamp-- it said Western 45
Auto, is an old stamp.
That one's, you know, a little bit troubling.
If you take a closer look at the underside,
you'll see this red-primer sealant.
The red-primer sealant and the nickel plating
would typically be from a more recent shell.
The bottom line with this--
the newspaper article, the markings on the casings--
it's a wonderful story.
There's nothing about the characteristics of these cases,
that we've been able to determine,
that would indicate that they come from that crime scene.
RICK: So what you're saying is, there's
no proving or disproving this--
JONATHAN: No. RICK: All right.
Thanks, Jonathan.
JONATHAN: You got it.
MAN: Thanks.
So even if those casings were used by the Dillinger gang,
there's nothing to be extracted off of those casings.
You can't pull fingerprints or DNA.
It's a wonderful story, but there's
just no way to establish fact.
Yeah, the reason I wanted Jonathan to look at them
was to figure out some way we could prove it.
Sure.
RICK: This is the hard thing in the world.
When you have just one piece of paperwork
that's 50-some years after the fact,
it's generally not enough.
You know, they very well could be.
They really could.
But the problem is, I can't put them in my showcase
and put a price tag on them and say, most likely from.
Have a good one. - Thanks very much.
You, too.
I know Bob Baylors, my son's great grandfather,
was at the scene.
I know he collected those bullets.
I know we've had them in the family since.
That is the authenticity factor for me.