Tim Berends: Hello and welcome to Jesus and Tim in Las Vegas!
Thank you, Warren, for helping out today.
My job is to get as many gospel tracts into the hands
of people coming from all over the world
to the secret suicide capital of the world, Las Vegas, Nevada.
Where suicides are not reported here, but in the hometowns
where people came from.
Because what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.
But God knows, doesn't He?
It's a joy to talk first of all with my friend David Daniels.
I love Jack Chick.
Jack Chick was a dear friend of mine.
I'd talk to him every day, at 5:00 for a couple of minutes,
he'd want to know what was happening in Las Vegas.
He went home to be with the Lord, a couple of years ago.
David Daniels had been working with him for a number of years.
David, are you there?
David Daniels: I am here.
Tim: All right, Brother.
Thank you so much.
I wanted to have you on today, because there are people who doubt
what Jesus said about hell.
I didn't become a Christian because Jesus loved me.
I'm motivated by that now.
I got saved because of hearing what Jesus said about hell.
The topic of whether there is a hell, and whether God will cast people into
a lake of fire to burn for all eternity, is a pretty emotional topic.
Is there a way to approach this, without all that emotion, David?
David: Well, yeah, Tim.
I think we need to approach this subject from
what's God's point of view, not what's man's point of view.
I actually wrote about it a little bit, in a tract called Limited Time Offer.
Jack wrote about it in the tract called "Hi, There!"
Whether I think God should do something or not,
or whether I think what God does is reasonable,
is really the wrong standard.
The rights standard to use is, What did God's say He would do?
What did God say are His principles?
Because at the end of the day, and at the end of our life,
only what God says really matters.
He has given us ample warning, as well as His promises,
in the scriptures.
And that's the key.
No one has any excuse.
He made His truths known.
Only what God says either counts or matters.
You see where I'm going there?
Tim: Yeah, absolutely.
David: So we have to ask: "What has God
already revealed about Himself?"
It's not about what I might prefer.
I have no say in the matter.
These are God's rules.
They are already set in motion.
And they are not up for debate.
Tim: So we should ask, then, "What has God revealed
about Himself?
What other questions should we ask, to learn what God said?
David: Okay, how about this?
Can God have righteous anger?
Tim: Yes!
Absolutely.
David: Psalm 7:11 "...God is angry with the wicked
every day."
"God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked
every day."
In Psalm 7:13 it says: 13 "He hath also prepared for him
the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows
against the persecutors."
And God showed Job how it was wrong
to say that God was unrighteous when He judged:
Job 40:7 "Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee,
and declare thou unto me.
8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment?
wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?"
Psalm 9:8 "And he shall judge the world in righteousness,
he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness."
Romans 2:5 "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart
treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation
of the righteous judgment of God;"
Tim: What does "perish" mean?
I think a lot of people are confused about that.
Does it mean they are still alive all the way down to hell?
David: There's a great example of that in Numbers 16:29-33.
And that's at the rebellion of Korah.
And God said through Moses, "If these men die
the common death of all men, or if they be visited
after the visitation of all men; then the Lord hath not sent me.
But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth,
and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them,
and they go down quick [that means alive] into the pit;
then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord."
And later it says (verse 33): "They, and all that appertained to them,
went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them:
and they perished from among the congregation."
So them "perishing" did not mean they were destroyed.
It only means that they weren't with the congregation of the living,
as it says, anymore.
Tim: Does God have the right to expect things of His creation?
David: Absolutely! He gives us everything.
We should be grateful.
Acts 17:25 "Neither is worshipped with men's hands,
as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath,
and all things;"
In Matthew 5:45 it says, "he ...sendeth rain
on the just and on the unjust."
1 Timothy 6:17 "Charge them that are rich...
that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches,
but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;"
But man has not been grateful.
And that's Romans 1, right?
Tim: Mm hmm.
David: Romans 1:21 "Because that, when they knew God,
they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful;
but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
That was all happening because they were not thankful.
Tim: Amen.
We're on the phone with David Daniels from Chick Publications.
Their website is www.chick.com.
We're talking about hell.
Does God have the right to take vengeance
on those who hate Him?
David: Absolutely.
He is the only one who has that right.
Romans 3:5.
Paul hits it right there.
"But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God,
what shall we say?
Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance?
(I speak as a man) 6 God forbid:
for then how shall God judge the world?"
So judging the world has to do with vengeance.
Nahum the prophet said (1:2-3) "God is jealous,
and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious;
the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries,
and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power,
and will not at all acquit the wicked..."
Deuteronomy 32:41 "If I whet my glittering sword,
and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance
to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me."
Tim: Does God have a right to punish?
David: Absolutely, because when we're honest,
we don't get as much punishment as we deserve.
When they returned from captivity, Ezra the high priest really
caught hold of God's right to punish, and yet God still restrains.
Listen to what Ezra says.
Ezra 9:13 "And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds,
and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God
hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve,
and hast given us such deliverance as this;"
But God still promises to punish the world for its iniquity:
Isaiah 13:11 "And I will punish the world for their evil,
and the wicked for their iniquity..."
We have no right to complain, not in this life,
not in the life to come:
Lamentations 3:39, that's after the fall of Jerusalem,
God writing through Jeremiah.
"Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?"
Jesus says there will be everlasting punishment:
Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away
into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Now if anyone tries to argue the Greek with me,
"into everlasting" and "into eternal," it's the same for both.
So "into everlasting" punishment is the same Greek as "into life" eternal.
Punishment vs. life.
Both are eternal.
The question is, Which eternity do you want?
Eternal punishment, or eternal life?
Tim: And we have one choice.
Is God unrighteous in any thing that He does, David?
David: Not in a single thing.
In Romans 3:5-6, it says
5 "...what shall we say?
Is God unrighteous..." as I said before,
"...who taketh vengeance?"
No!
6 "God forbid: for then how shall God
judge the world?"
And Hebrews 6:10, for us who follow God:
"For God is not unrighteous to forget your work
and labour of love..."
So God is totally righteous.
He's righteous on both sides.
It never changes.
And can God do any thing He says He will do?
Yes, because He can deliver us from earthly fire,
or deliver us to the fires of judgment.
Daniel 3:17, for instance.
"If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us
from the burning fiery furnace..."
But Jesus also said:
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him
which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Tim: Well, David, when it says, "destroy both soul and body in hell."
Doesn't that mean they'll cease to exist?
David: That's a really good question, Tim. But not at all.
Did you note that the Lord Jesus said "soul and body" shall be destroyed,
but He never said anything about the spirit being destroyed?
I've checked my scriptures.
There's nothing about the spirit being destroyed.
I almost wonder if that's what Jesus meant, when he said,
"Their worm shall not die?"
THEIR worm shall not die.
That starts in Isaiah 66:24, the last chapter of Isaiah.
It says, and this is during the 1000 years
when Jesus is reigning and ruling,
24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men
that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die,
neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring
unto all flesh."
People will actually see them.
So their bodies are technically carcases, and yet
"their worm" shall not die.
Jesus continued with this, Mark 9:43.
Remember, the modern Bibles remove 2 of the 3 of the references,
on purpose.
The people who were originally passing down these scriptures,
didn't want what they said, and took out as much as they could.
Mark 9:43-48 43 "And if thy hand offend thee,
cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed,
than having two hands to go into hell,
into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
And in verse 45 again, 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off:
it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet
to be cast into hell, into the fire
that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not,
and the fire is not quenched."
And the same thing "if thine eye offend thee,"
verse 47, "...than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
There's something about "their worm" that has to do with them,
and I think that maybe that is what's left of their spirit,
but their body and their soul are destroyed.
Tim: Can God make an example of someone?
David: Yeah.
God even made an example of His own people.
Deuteronomy 29:24, when God is talking through Moses
about happens when they're punished, Israel is punished for their sins.
24 "Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD
done thus unto this land?
what meaneth the heat of this great anger?
25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken
the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers,
which he made with them when he brought them forth
out of the land of Egypt:"
Tim: We're talking with David Daniels
from Chick Publications, talking about the eternal-ness of hell
Jesus warned about.
Can God make an eternal example, David?
David: Yes, but first let's agree that "for ever and ever"
is something that doesn't stop happening.
So let's do this.
Exodus 15:18, "The LORD shall reign
for ever and ever."
Psalm 45:6 "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever..."
Since people fight with the book of Revelation,
let's see what's in the book of Revelation.
Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ; and he shall reign
for ever and ever."
Revelation 14:11, though, "And the smoke of their torment
ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,
who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth
the mark of his name."
So anyone receiving the mark will have no rest for ever and ever,
the smoke of their torment rising up, they will have no rest day nor night.
So they will exist, and they will be in torment,
and they will have no rest, for ever and ever.
That's the same "for ever and ever," if you want to do the Greek thing,
that God will reign.
And God will never stop reigning.
So they will never stop being tormented.
Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them
was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are,
and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
So the devil, the beast, and the false prophet
will also be tormented day and night, for ever and ever,
as long as God reigns.
And that will never stop, so they will never stop being tormented.
And remember Revelation 20:14, "And death and hell
were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life
was cast into the lake of fire."
So the lake of fire is for everybody
who is not found written in the book of life.
Tim: And it's important to point out too, in Revelation 19 it says
the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire.
And 1,000 years later, in Revelation 20:10,
the devil is thrown into the lake of fire, "where the beast
and the false prophet ARE..."
Not were.
If God says there's a cost to something, is there, David?
David: Yes.
Anything God says is true.
In Matthew 16:26, God the Son says, "For what is a man profited,
if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"
People who do not turn in faith to the Lord Jesus
will lose their own soul.
He'll destroy both soul and body in hell, and their spirit that is left
shall be cast into a lake of fire.
Tim: If God says someone is in danger of eternal damnation,
is he or she?
David: Absolutely.
Matthew 12:32, "...whosoever speaketh
against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him,
neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
In Mark 3:28-30 the same thing, "hath never forgiveness,
but is in danger of eternal damnation..."
To not be forgiven in the world to come,
means the person continues to exist in the world to come.
But that person exists without forgiveness.
And the only place for a person to live, unforgiven, forever,
is in the lake of fire.
Tim: Hmm.
Two more questions, David.
If the fire is not quenched, will it go out?
David: To quench a fire means to put it out.
Numbers 11:1 "...the fire of the LORD burnt among them..."
when God was displeased.
2 "And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses
prayed unto the LORD, the fire was quenched", put out.
Tim: Why keep a fire going for ever and ever,
if it isn't burning anything anymore?
David: If a fire doesn't have anything to burn,
it has no reason to burn.
Jesus told us, "their worm dieth not,"
and that fire "shall never be quenched."
And he called that place "hell."
And yet even hell shall be cast into the lake of fire, and
that lake of fire shall never go out.
Hell is real.
But hell and the lake of fire can be avoided.
We don't have to perish in hell and the lake of fire forever and ever,
but can have salvation.
And that's when we get to one more "perish" verse here.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have everlasting life."
God made eternal punishment for the devil and his angels, not for humans.
Matthew 25:41, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels:"
You only go there if you join his rebellion against God
and you don't accept the free gift of God through faith
that is offered to you..
Even if a person doesn't believe in hell or the lake of fire
or eternal punishment, All who reject Christ
will experience it regardless, for all eternity,
as long as God reigns, for ever and ever.
Tim: Amen.
And I tell you, if you don't have that assurance,
turn to the Lord today.
Say, "God, forgive me for my sins.
Jesus, come into my life right now."
And go to chick.com and read, "Hi, There!"
Or what was the other one that you wrote, David?
David: Limited Time Offer.
Tim: Limited Time Offer.
There's some excellent, excellent tracts.
Right now we're handing out The Trick, at schools, high schools.
You know, as they come out, those kids are getting those tracts.
And 9 times out of 10, they're taking them.
David, thank you so much for for being with us.
You have a YouTube channel, too, don't you?
David: Yeah. It's easy.
Go to youtube.com/c/chicktracts or chick.com/Bible
and that will get you anything you need.
Tim: Very good.
Thank you so much, David.
You guys are a blessing at Chick Publications,
there in Rancho Cucamonga.
Greet my friends there.
God bless you.
David: I will. God bless you.
Tim: Okay, take care, goodbye.