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>> Hello everyone, I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCube.
I'm here with Dave Vellante, my co-host.
Exclusive conversation around the role of data,
data for good and bad.
We always cover the role of data.
We used to talk about AI and data for good
but in this exclusive interview...
And we have some exclusive material about data for bad.
Dave, we've been talking about weaponizing data
a year ago in SiliconEAGLE in theCUBE,
around how data is being weaponized,
and certainly in the elections.
We know the Russians were involved.
We know that data, you can buy journalists, you can
create fake news.
And for every click-bate and fake news is bad content.
But also on the other side of this, there's good bate;
good news.
So the world's changin'.
There needs to be a better place, needs to be
some action taken, because there's now evidence
that the role that the Russians had, using fake news
and weaponizing it to sway the election and other things
has been out there.
So this is somethin' that we've been talkin' about.
>> Yeah I mean the signature of the hacks is pretty clear.
I think there is a distinct signature when you talk
to the experts of when it's China or when it's Russia.
Russia, very clever, about the way they target somebody
whose maybe a pawn; but they try to make him or her
feel like a king, grab their credentials and then
work their way in.
They've been doing this for decades, right?
>> And the thing is to, is that now it's not
just state-sponsored, there's new groups out there
that they can enable open source tools.
We report on theCUBE that terrorist organizations
and bad actors, are taking open source tools and threats
from state nations, posing as threats to democracy
in the U.S. and other countries.
This is a huge problem.
>> And it's, in a way, it's harder than the nuclear problem.
We had weapons pointed at each other, right.
This is...
The United States has a lot to lose.
If we go on the offense, others can attack us
and attack our systems, which are pretty mature.
So, recently we talked to Garry Kasparov.
I had an exclusive interview with him.
He's very outspoken.
Kasparov is the greatest chess player in history,
by most accounts.
And he is a political activist, he's an author.
And he had a number of things to say about this.
Let's listen to him, it's about a couple minute clip,
and then we'll come back and talk about it.
Watch this.
>> Garry: Knowing Vladimir Putin and the mentality
of the KGB mentality
and the way he has been approaching the global problems;
I had no doubt that the question was not
if Putin would attack somewhere,
but the question is when and where?
And the attack on U.S. democracy was a surprise here
but it was not surprise for us because we could see
how they built these capabilities for more than a decade.
Because they have been creating fake news industry
in Russia to deal with Russian opposition 2004, 2005.
Then they used against neighboring countries like Estonia
in 2007.
Then they moved to eastern Europe
and then through western Europe.
So when they ended up attacking the United States,
they would've had almost a decade of experience.
And it's quite unfortunate that, while there was
kind of information about this attacks,
the previous administration decided just to take it easy.
And the result is that we have this case of interference;
I hope there will be more indictments.
I hope we'll get to the bottom of that.
Because, we know that they are
still pretty active in Europe.
And they will never seize there--
>> Dave: Germany, France--
>> Garry: Exactly. But it's...
I call Putin as:
merchant of doubt.
Because, unlike Soviet propaganda machine, he's not
selling one ideology.
All he wants is to spread chaos.
So that's why it's not about and, oh this is the only,
the right teaching.
No, no, no.
No, it's wrong, it's wrong, everything...
Yeah, maybe there are 10 different ways of saying the truth.
Truth is relevant.
And that's a very powerful message
because it's spreading these doubts.
And he's very good in just creating these confusions
and actually, bringing people to fight each other.
And I have to say he succeeded--
>> Dave: Our president is taken a page out of that.
Unfortunately.
But I also think the big issue we face
as a country, in the United States, is 2020.
Is the election in 2020 is going to be about
who leverages social media and the weaponization
of social media.
And the Russian attackers you talk to the black hats,
very sophisticated, very intriguing how they come in,
they find the credentials--
>> Garry: But look, we know, Jesus, every expert knows
that in this industry,
if you are trying to defend yourself,
if you are on the defense all the time you will lose.
It's a losing proposition.
So the only way to deter the aggression is to make sure
that they won't be counterattacks.
So that there will be devastating blows, those
who are attacking the United States.
And you need the political will because, technology is here;
America is still the leading power in the world.
But the political will, unfortunately--
>> Dave: However, I would say that, but it's different
than with nuclear warheads.
Robert Gates was on theCUBE, he said to me,
and I asked him about offense versus defense.
He said the only thing about the Unite States is we
have a lot to lose.
So we have to be careful.
(laughter)
How aggressive we can be.
>> Garry: No, exactly.
That is just, it's, yes.
It's a great error of uncertainty: what can you lose?
If you show strength.
But I can tell you exactly
how you are going to lose everything, if you are not--
>> Dave: Vigilant.
>> Garry: If you are not vigilant.
If you are not deterrent.
If you are not sending the right signal
to the Putins of this world that aggression against America
will have the price that you cannot bear.
>> So John, pretty unequivocal comments from Garry Kasparov.
So a lot of people don't believe that you can actually
manipulate social media that way.
You've been in social for a long time,
since the beginning days.
Maybe you could explain how one, would a country
or a state sponsored terrorism;
how would they go about manipulating individuals?
>> You know Dave, I've been involved
in internet infrastructure from the beginning days
of Web 1.0 and through search engines.
Student of the data.
I've seen the data.
I've seen our, the data that we have from our media company.
I've seen the data on Facebook and here's the deal:
there's bad actors doin' fake news, controlling everything,
creating bad outcomes.
It's important for everyone to understand
that there's an actual opposite spectrum.
Which is the exact opposite of the bad;
there's a good version.
So what we can learn from this is that there's
a positive element of this, if we can believe it, which is
actually a way to make it work for good.
And that is trust, high-quality data, reputation
and context.
That is a very hard problem.
Facebook is tryin' to solve it.
You know we're workin' on solving that.
But here's the anatomy of the hack.
If you control the narrative, you can control the meme.
If you can control the meme, you can control the idea.
If you can control the idea, you can control
the belief system.
If you can control the belief system, you can
control the population.
That is exactly what has happened with the election.
That is what's happening now in social networks.
That's why so many people are
turning off to social networks.
Because this is hackable; you can actually hack the brains
and outcomes of people.
Because, controlling the narrative, controlling the meme,
controlling the idea, controlling the belief system:
you can impact the population.
That has absolutely been done.
>> Without firin' a shot.
>> Without firing a shot.
This is the new cold social network wars that are goin' on.
And again, that has been identified, but there's
an opposite effect.
And the opposite effect is having a trust system,
a short cut to trust; there will be a Google in our future,
Google, like what Google did to search engines.
It will be for social networks.
That is, whoever can nail the trust, reputation, context:
what is real and what is not.
Will ultimately have all the users goin' to their doorstep.
This is the opportunity for news organizations,
for platforms and it's all going to be driven
by new infrastructure, new software.
This is something we can learn from.
But there is a way to hack, it's been done.
I've just laid it out.
That's what's happening.
>> Well, blockchain solved or play a role
in solving this problem of reputation in your opinion.
>> Well you know that I believe centralized is bad.
'Cause you can hack a centralized database and the data.
Ownership is huge.
I personally believe that blockchain and this notion
of decentralized data ownership will ultimately
go back to the people and that
the decentralized applications and cryptocurrency
leads a path, it's not yet proven,
there's no clear visibility yet.
But many believe that the wallet is a new browser
and that cryptocurrency can put the power to the people;
so that new data can emerge.
To vet in a person who says they're something
that they're not.
News that says they're somethin' that they're not.
This is a trust.
This is something that is not yet available.
That's what I'm sayin'.
You can't get it with Google,
you can't get it with Facebook.
You can't get it in these platforms.
So the world has to change at an infrastructure level.
That's the opportunity to blockchain.
Aside from all the things like who's going to
give the power for the miners;
a variety of technical issues.
But conceptually, there is a path there.
That's a new democracy.
This is global phenomenon.
It's a societal change.
This is so cutting edge, but it's yet very promising
at the same time.
>> This is super important because I can't tell you
how many times have you've received an email
from one political persuasion or the other
that lays out emphatically, that this individual
did that or...
And you do some research and you find out it's fake news.
It happens all the time.
>> There's no context for these platforms.
Facebook optimizes their data for advertising optimization
and you're going to see data being optimized for user control,
community control, community curation.
More objective not subjective data.
This is the new algorithm, this is what machine learning
in AI will make a difference.
This is the new trust equation that will emerge.
This is a phenomenal opportunity for entrepreneurs.
If you're in the media business and you're not thinking
about this, you will be out of business.
That's our opinion.
>> Excellent John.
Well thanks for your thoughts and sharing with us
how these hacks are done.
This is real.
The midterm elections, 2020 is really going to be won or lost
on social media.
Appreciate that.
>> And Facebook's fumbling and they're going to try to do good.
We'll see what they do.
>> Alright.
>> That's a wrap. Good job.
>> Thanks for watching.