>> Sreenivasan: FOR MORE ON THE
SITUATION IN VENEZUELA, JOHN
OTIS REPORTS ON VENEZUELA AND
COLOMBIA FOR N.P.R. AND JOINS US
NOW VIA SKYPE FROM BOGOTA,
COLOMBIA.
TELL ME, HOW SIGNIFICANT IS
THIS?
I KNOW YOU'RE WORKING ON A STORY
NOW.
THE BORDER CROSSING, WE'VE SEEN
OR HEARD OF HUNDREDS IF NOT
THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WANTING TO
GET ACROSS THAT BORDER TO JUST
GET BASIC GOODS.
>> WELL, YES, IT IS QUITE
SIGNIFICANT NEWS FOR DESPERATE
VENEZUELANS, BECAUSE WHEN YOU
HAVE THESE BORDER BRIDGES
BLOCKED, THEY'RE ACTUALLY
BLOCKED WITH SHIPPING
CONTAINERS, SO PEOPLE COULDN'T
GET ACROSS THE BRIDGES, BUT THEY
WOULD STILL GET INTO COLOMBIA,
AND THAT WOULD HAVE TO USE THESE
CLANDESTINE FOOTPATHS USED BY
DRUG SMUGGLERS.
THESE ARE RIVAL SMUGGLING GANGS,
AND THERE WOULD OFTEN BE
SHOOTOUTS ALONG THESE CHANNELS,
SO IT'S QUITE DANGEROUS.
AND ALSO VENEZUELANS TRYING TO
GET ACROSS TO THE COLUMBIAN
SIDE, THEY'D HAVE TO CROSS THE
TÁCHIRA RIVER WHICH FORMS
THE BORDER.
I WAS UP THERE RECENTLY AND THEY
WOULD BE WADING ACROSS THE RIVER
UP TO THEIR CHEST IN WATER.
I MET ONE WOMAN WHO WAS BRINGING
HER SON ACROSS THE BORDER ACROSS
THE RIVER, AND SHE WAS BRINGING
HIM ACROSS THE BORDER TO GO TO A
DAYCARE CENTER ON THE COLOMBIAN
SIDE.
SHE HAD TO CROSS THE RIVER ONCE
TO DROP HER SON OFF, THEN GO
BACK TO THE VENEZUELAN SIDE TO
WORK.
SHE'D CROSS AGAIN IN THE
AFTERNOON TO PICK UP HER SON AND
THEN COME HOME IN THE EVENING.
SO THAT WAS FOUR TIMES CROSSING
THE RIVER.
SO, YOU CAN SEE JUST HOW TOUGH
IT CAN GET TO GET INTO COLOMBIA
WITH THOSE BORDERS OFFICIALLY
CLOSED.
BUT NOW THEY'RE OPENING UP
AGAIN.
>> Sreenivasan: NOW, THESE ARE
VENEZUELANS THAT HAVE OPTED TO
STAY THERE.
BUT THERE HAS BEEN AN OUTFLOW
OF VENEZUELANS LEAVING THE
COUNTRY OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF
YEARS NOW.
>> THAT'S CORRECT.
THE LATEST FIGURES FROM THE U.N.
SHOW THAT FOUR MILLION
VENEZUELANS HAVE LEFT THE
COUNTRY.
MOST OF THOSE JUST IN THE LAST
FOUR YEARS.
THE U.N. IS CALLING IT THE
BIGGEST EXODUS IN RECENT LATIN
AMERICAN HISTORY.
THESE ARE VENEZUELANS OF ALL
STRIPES FROM PROFESSIONALS TO
GAS STATION ATTENDANTS TO
STUDENTS LOOKING FOR A BETTER
LIFE, AND THEY'VE ACTUALLY
BECOME ANOTHER MAJOR LIFELINE
FOR VENEZUELANS WHO ARE BACK IN
VENEZUELA BECAUSE PEOPLE BACK IN
VENEZUELA REALLY DEPEND ON U.S.
DOLLARS COMING BACK INTO THE
COUNTRY TO DEAL WITH
HYPERINFLATION AND THE HIGH COST
OF LIVING THERE.
>> Sreenivasan: GIVEN THAT
SITUATION, I KNOW YOU HAD A
CHANCE TO SPEAK TO JUAN GUAIDÓ
WHEN YOU WERE ON YOUR REPORTING
TRIP, WHAT DOES HE THINK IS
POSSIBLE?
>> WELL, WHEN I SPOKE TO GUAIDO,
YOU KNOW, THE OPPOSITION FORCES
THAT HE REPRESENTS WERE INVOLVED
IN NEGOTIATIONS IN NORWAY WITH
THE GOVERNMENT OF NICOLÁS
MADURO.
BUT THERE WASN'T MUCH PROGRESS
BEING MADE, AND GUAIDO SOUNDED
KIND OF DOWN AND OUT ON THE
WHOLE PROCESS.
NEITHER SIDE REALLY WANTS TO
BACK DOWN.
THE OPPOSITION IS SAYING NICOLÁS
MADURO MUST LEAVE OFFICE SO WE
CAN HOLD FREE ELECTIONS, AND
MADURO IS SAYING, I'M NOT GOING
ANYWHERE.
AND HE'S GOT-- THE MILITARY IS
STILL STRONGLY SUPPORTING
MADURO.
AND SO, IT'S A REAL STALEMATE
RIGHT NOW.
GUAIDÓ IS CALLING FOR MORE
STREET PROTESTS.
HE KEEPS CALLING ON MADURO TO
LEAVE OFFICE.
HE'S TRYING TO CONVINCE MILITARY
LEADERS TO TURN AGAINST MADURO,
BUT EVEN IF THEY DID, IF THERE
WAS SOME KIND OF A MILITARY COUP
IN VENEZUELA, THERE IS NO
GUARANTEE THAT WOULD RESULT IN
SOME KIND OF A DEMOCRATIC
GOVERNMENT.
YOU MIGHT HAVE A SITUATION, SAY
AS IN EGYPT, WHERE THE MILITARY
TAKES OVER AND MAINTAINS
CONTROL.
>> Sreenivasan: SO WHAT HAPPENS
IN THE INTERIM?
I MEAN, HE HAS HIS SUPPORTERS.
IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE FORCING
CHANGE.
IT'S BEEN MONTHS NOW.
HOW LONG DOES HE THINK HE CAN
CONTINUE?
>> THE MADURO GOVERNMENT DOESN'T
SEEM PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN
ARRESTING GUAIDÓ, BECAUSE IF
THEY WOULD HAVE WANTED TO THEY
COULD HAVE ALREADY.
AND GUAIDÓ HAS BEEN BARNSTORMING
THE COUNTRY SINCE JANUARY WHEN
HE CLAIMED THAT NICOLÁS MADURO
IS AN ILLEGITIMATE PRESIDENT
BECAUSE OF FRAUD IN LAST YEAR'S
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
HE'S GETTING A LOT OF SUPPORT AS
HE GOES AROUND THE COUNTRY, A
LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN COMING
OUT TO SEE HIM.
HE DOES PROVIDE A KIND OF RAY OF
HOPE FOR MOST VENEZUELANS WHO
REALLY DON'T LIKE THEIR CURRENT
GOVERNMENT AND THEY WANT MADURO
TO LEAVE, BUT STILL HE'S NOT
REALLY SHOWING THE WAY OUT.
HE HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO-- HE
WASN'T ABLE TO GET HUMANITARIAN
AID INTO THE COUNTRY.
HE HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO CONVINCE
THE MILITARY TO TURN AGAINST
MADURO.
AS THIS STALEMATE GOES ON, HE'S
LIKELY TO LOSE SOME OF THAT
POPULAR SUPPORT THAT HE
CURRENTLY ENJOYS.
>> Sreenivasan: JOHN OTIS,
JOINING US VIA SKYPE FROM
BOGOTA, COLOMBIA TONIGHT.
THANKS SO MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.